The 2015 Silicon Valley Auto Show is going to be held on January 8th – 11th at the San Jose Mcenery County Convention Center on San Carlos Street in San Jose. The show hours will be Thursday-Saturday from 10am-10pm and Sunday 10am-6pm.
Admission for adults is a bargain at $11. Senior Citizens (62 and over), Military with ID, students under 21 with school ID and children ages 7-12 are all $8. Children 6 and under are free.
Many manufacturers will be present, historically a very few will be missing. Scheduled to be present, but missing from the San Francisco show is the Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Other debuts scheduled are the Mercedes Benz C-Class, Honda CR-V, Fiat 500X, Mazda 3, Dodge Charger, Hyundai Genesis, Ford F-150, Acura RDX, Dodge Ram 1500 EcoDiesel and upcoming model(s) from Audi. Will a 707hp Dodge Challenger or Charger Hellcat be there? Go and find out!
The advantage this show offers with the Ride and Drives is the quick access highways instead of trying to thread through a congested traffic mess like San Francisco. Hopefully its more than driving around the block.Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, Ford and Toyota will offer multiple vehicles. Planned from Ford include the new Mustange, Fusion Energi, CMAZ Energi, Explorer, Escape, F150, Flex, Focus, Edge and Transit Connect. Toyota should have the Camry, Corolla, Prius and RAV4.
For those that like exotics, this year should be among the best ever. Los Gatos Luxury Cars and the DuPont Registry Live will feature multiple vehicles. Additionally, the Blackhawk Museum Cars & Coffee will be at the show for the first time ever on Sunday from 8am-10am in the outside convention center parking lot. Likely held downstairs in the back building again, Spider Photos Custom Cars and DUB Show Live will have a variety of custom exotics, muscle cars, trucks, low riders, motorcycles and more. This could be one of the best photo opportunities if they are not parked too close
together. In the past, the Ride and Drives are held in between the main show and this location.
There will also be a display of alternative fuel vehicles; an iPhone 6 giveaway contest and the San Jose Sharks mascot Sharkie will greet fans at Toyota on the 1t1th from 1-2pm. The downstairs of the convention center will have various vendors as well. Hopefully children walking on the seats and rubbing against the paint will be at a minimum. And only service dogs allowed, please.
Buying tickets online at www.SVAutoShow.com will saves $1 and attendees can receive a free one-year subscription to Motor Trend, courtesy of the Silicon Valley Auto Dealers Association. Give yourself several hours to enjoy a good show with a lot of variety.
Thursday, July 21, 2016
Comparison of the Ferrari 458 to a Porsche 911 Twin Turbo S and McLaren 12C
Guest author Jwp98 from Illinois shared his experience on 6speedonline.com with three great, extremely fast sports cars. Below are his thoughts after logging several thousand miles on each car. These were sequential experiences, not in the garage all at once.
Visual appeal: 12C
The 12C just does not have a bad angle. The 458 does have some bad angles (mostly solved by the Speciale) but it has some inspiring angles too. The 991 versus 997 loses something, I'm afraid. The rear is so bland and fat, without even the pretense of a diffuser or a big wing to distract and intimidate. The front is improved and side view reveals a handsome, albeit less classic, smoother rake. Quartering away is just gorgeous over those muscular hips. I look over my shoulder when I walk away, like it was the only car on earth. Well, enough of the aesthetic stuff and on to the marginally less subjective.
Exhaust note: 12C (yes really)
Taking a 458 through an overpass at redline is smile inducing. I grew up on V8 Camaros and tractor pulls, not F1 metallic rasp, but I'm still smiling. The broken glass crackle on downshift is even better, and less likely to get police attention.
The 12C is underrated for this obligatory application, but more commonly when you are putting around in town you can hear the turbines lovely chu-chu-chuff, an unpredictable animal noise from right behind your head. It'd be hard to overemphasize this constantly pleasant event.
The 458 at "town" speeds has a flatulent ricer sound when the valves open at low rpm (2500 I think). Fail.
The 991TT has a new, surprisingly brassy baritone that the 997TT totally lacked. I'm not aware of a wastegate in any VTG system but turbine noises are always there on lift, and are entertaining without sounding artificial or intrusive. On overrun there is a predictable, out-of-character, deep crackle. Maybe it's piped in somehow. I don't like it at all. Oddly I much preferred the lively low splutter of the 997TT. More organic, softer. One might have to roll up the windows or even drive on snow to hear it, but wow do I miss it. Nostalgia for cars past.
Acceleration: 991TTS
Incredibly 550 hp is a knife to gunfight these days. Those numbers were offered at entry level by Ferrari and Lamborghini 4-5 years ago. Domestics too are seeing 600-700 hp stock, with a warranty and a bargain sticker. The lighter 12C will destroy anything at it's price point and above once it grips. Nonetheless, despite it's weight, I'm giving the 991TT the powertrain blue ribbon. It has minimal lag, rewarding gearing, smart auto modes, and sick torque. It's the nuclear roller skate you can take anywhere.
Fun: 458
Tough call. The 458 and 991 turbo are both very responsive. The 458 is quick as a video game. Most city driving is between 20 and 50 mph, for me anyway. The 12C is not geared for enjoyment at those speeds. Torque to the wheels is more important than torque at the shaft, and the 991TT is a genius at torque management. What the Porsche lacks in thrill it partly recovers in accessibility. One does not
have to fret about dragging the snout or parking 1/2 mile from gawkers.
Reliability: 991TTS
So far the Porsche takes it. Definitely not McLaren. modern Ferraris are fine IMO, if you enjoy jokes about Italian culture (no offense intended) and can tolerate a few electronic gremlins.
Tech: 911 TTS
Despite the ground-breaking use of active hydraulic suspension and carbon fiber tub on the 12C. All told, the 991TT offers a LOT of tech, most of it quiet and interesting to read about, with no need to learn or fear the action of differential couplings and computer sampling rates. Just drive as fast as you dare. It's efficient too, not that it really matters, but why embrace low-tech and waste? The small fuel tank makes it seem to guzzle, but it does not. The start stop mode on the 991 I have tried once. If the digital gauge tells true, oil pressure comes up too slowly at take off. I know there's a microlayer of lube waiting there, but no. Just no. Fortunately it defaults to off. The keyless start on the 991 is embarrassing however. Lexus had push button start in 2005. Corvette had heads up display in the 90s I think. Are you there Porsche? It's me, clock radio. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Track potential:
I don't plan on tracking the car and am in no position to instruct on rear engine dynamics. The 991 turbo with ECU, exhaust, and sticky tires should be a force. Perhaps THE force, depending on the track.
Luxury: 991TTS
No contest. I don't have to tell anyone here about practicality either. This is the only supercar my wife wants to drive, and has single handedly made me a sunroof fan. Good audio but the seating position may not be as good as the 997.
Value and depreciation: 458
Porsche for great value, Ferrari for slow depreciation.
Safety: 991TTS
Not very exciting to discuss but if the car does not have confident brakes, grip, and headlights, this is a fun killer, if not a man killer. Bearing witness, lots of turbos are daily drivers (mine is not). Porsche is the clear winner here, and has been for years. Visibility/seating position matters too when you're threading 18-wheelers in the rain.
Handling: 458
Twitchy, quick, alive, if not the grippiest on stock tire options. Porsche is strong here though. It's nimble and doesn't feel like a heavyweight. Easy to place, as they say. The 4-wheel steering is not so noticeable to me, except in parking lots and torque vectoring, is just as innocuous.
The Ferrari steers so jittery, snappy and the rear steps out on a whim. The 12C offers more feedback.
The Porsche's steering is a little, well, different. The extent of wind effect and tram lining are disturbing. Happily there is less of the creepy rear end twitch than in the 997. It's less telepathic than its peers and not as light in the nose of course. It's not the "snap out of your hand" wiggle of previous gen cars. But it's not really numb either. There is just something odd. Almost as if the less I consciously steer the better line it delivers. It likes inputs of pressure, not motion. That kind of feel flatters neither my driving nor the 911 pedigree. But, as I read reviews of the 918 and its competitors, no one is talking about feedback. Reviewers use vague words like "rewarding", "precise" or even "heavy", which sounds an awful lot like "numb", interesting. Whether it's the electric motor impact I don't know, I've read there is no difference between the 991TT and the 991 GT3 except software (and AWD). The new steering will take some getting used to. I am wondering about the impact of a yet to be announced software flash and different tires.
Transmission: 2014 Porsche, 2012 Ferrari, 2013 McLaren
One wants consistent creep with predictable light throttle response on the street. On the track, lighting speed without chassis jump or power interruption. All can deliver the latter, durability being the unknown. All are also viscous dual clutch packs. Graziano may have supply similar hardware for the mid engine cars, but the software is quite different. This has been extensively debated elsewhere. I suspect some combination of durability and versatility was ultimately sought compromise, in other words. My McLaren’s 1-2 shift was needlessly choppy. It also allowed a lot of slip before hooking up. Not good when you’re trying to feel for traction or get out of someone’s way on the 8 lane rush home. Mode control does goes to McLaren for not using silly words like “race” and for logically and completely divorcing drivetrain and suspension settings.
Perhaps its unfair to compare different years and software iterations, particularly to the 458. Of the three the Porsche feels most like an automatic yet not soft. Interestingly it has some clatter, some gear slack you can hear when I assume bits are turning at equal rates more or less, or disengaged, with no load. Not annoying like reported in the GTR but more a throwback to light flywheel manuals. The crisp bark on upshift goes to Ferrari, referencing the exhaust note mentioned earlier. Sounds like something unique and violent is happening in there, to wow onlookers, to propel you forward, and harness the inertia of those between- gear RPMs.
Comfort: McLaren 12C
Once you're in. I'm not a fan of NVH, especially that whump of air the 911 sends into your skull on crossing an expansion joint. Any tech to get rid of it is worth an investment. The 12C suspension is almost as good as they say, but not like a sedan. It's doors are a huge PIA though. I'm 6 feet
tall and reasonably flexible. And imagine a pregnant women shoehorning in then the door failing to close, or making wind noise all day. Yup, it happened.
The Ferrari was versatile enough for short trips but I don't recommend driving it 400 miles with a hangover. The 991 ride is not much better than a 997. I've deflated tires, changed modes, considered the speeds and road surfaces, considered the deceptive softness of the seats. It is harsh. I'm reporting here as one who logged many road miles in 997 GT3 and GT2 cars. Noise level is high too, but such is life in the big league and part of the experience. Until it's not, and then we admit it sucked.
Summary: I'm happily sticking with my Turbo S for the foreseeable future. Even getting a child seat. The three cars above aren't perhaps direct market competitors but I hope these notes are useful to anyone shopping or thinking of a change. I should mention I'm not brand loyal and have low confidence in any company to build and support a reliable super sports car using cutting edge tech. It is apparently too tall an order. I'd love to be proved wrong. If I had to give money to one of the big manufacturers in the future it would probably be Ferrari. But again, this hypothetical car isn't a daily driver. So far, have all been delights in one way or another. You get your money's worth, particularly in the preowned 12C and turbo markets.
The 2014 San Francisco International Auto Show review
The 57th Annual San Francisco International Auto Show presented by AutoTrader.com is being held this week at the Moscone Center in downtown San Francisco. Now exhibiting over an eight day period from Saturday November 22nd to Saturday, November 29th, it is a good thing because it fills both the North and South Halls and there is a lot of fascinating vehicles to view, sit in and see in person.
Tickets are $10 for adults and free for children under 12. This is an absolute bargain considering the scope and scale of the second largest show on the West Coast. The hours are 10am-10pm except the 29th, it closes at 9pm. Besides 36 manufacturers represented, there are also specialty displays whose sum easily justify the admission fee by themselves. These include Alternative Fuel vehicles, the Academy of Art University Classic Car Collection, the SF Auto Salon with a wide variety of
modified domestics and imports, the Ferrari Club of America, hot rods from Dominator Hot Rods, and a variety of race cars for the track and dragstrip in the Gasoline Alley section.
There are also Ride and Drive opportunities from several manufacturers, Alternative Fuel vehicles and alternative fuel technology display from PG&E. There are also several automobile memorabilia displays and items for sale, although the Maserati wall display with the artwork from decades past was also very cool. There are several driving simulators but Ford had the most extensive one that has to be seen to be believed.
Be sure to give yourself at least four hours if you’re really interested in seeing all the cars and trucks up close, or with the expanded schedule, plan on attending twice. The SF Auto Salon has cars with mild to wild modifications. Everything from Pro Touring domestics, ridiculous broken-looking “stance” imports, BMWs, Lexus, Supras, Evos, late 60s muscle cars, etc. Plan on spending a lot of time in that room alone. The race car section unfortunately didn’t allow as close access as the Auto Salon section, but they were still quite interesting. Just make sure your zoom function works well.
Oddly the Mercedes Benz display was the least impressive (or easily missed if we saw the wrong one), and the cover car for the show, the 2015 Corvette Z06, wasn’t even present, nor was the Camaro Z/28 although for some reason a regular Camaro SS was sectioned off from being touched. There was a ZL1 and an SS sedan as well. There were two Dodge Challenger R/Ts, but the Hellcat was
conspicuously missing as well. Lexus did have an RC-F though. Tesla again wasn’t present but considering the accessibility of their showrooms and presence in the Bay Area, it’s understandable. Porsche did not have a 918, and although there was a sinister Ferrari 599 GTO, an Enzo and McLaren 650S, do not expect to see a 458, LaFerrari or McLaren P1.
A couple of tips for attendees: For those who want to avoid convention center food, if even offered, the Metreon building around the corner on 4th street has multiple cuisines available and are quite used to handling convention center crowds. The Mediterranean restaurant at the corner of Howard and 4th also is good for a quick meal. There are a couple of other places within walking distance. If
you decide to park at the Moscone Center garage on 3rd street, once you get on 3rd, get into the right lane right away, as it is easy to miss.
Overall this is an excellent show, well worth attending and now running a proper length of time for many to enjoy, and if you’re an enthusiast, for more than one visit.
Picture album:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/SanJoseCarsExaminer/photos/?tab=album&album_id=586503771454338
Tickets are $10 for adults and free for children under 12. This is an absolute bargain considering the scope and scale of the second largest show on the West Coast. The hours are 10am-10pm except the 29th, it closes at 9pm. Besides 36 manufacturers represented, there are also specialty displays whose sum easily justify the admission fee by themselves. These include Alternative Fuel vehicles, the Academy of Art University Classic Car Collection, the SF Auto Salon with a wide variety of
modified domestics and imports, the Ferrari Club of America, hot rods from Dominator Hot Rods, and a variety of race cars for the track and dragstrip in the Gasoline Alley section.
There are also Ride and Drive opportunities from several manufacturers, Alternative Fuel vehicles and alternative fuel technology display from PG&E. There are also several automobile memorabilia displays and items for sale, although the Maserati wall display with the artwork from decades past was also very cool. There are several driving simulators but Ford had the most extensive one that has to be seen to be believed.
Be sure to give yourself at least four hours if you’re really interested in seeing all the cars and trucks up close, or with the expanded schedule, plan on attending twice. The SF Auto Salon has cars with mild to wild modifications. Everything from Pro Touring domestics, ridiculous broken-looking “stance” imports, BMWs, Lexus, Supras, Evos, late 60s muscle cars, etc. Plan on spending a lot of time in that room alone. The race car section unfortunately didn’t allow as close access as the Auto Salon section, but they were still quite interesting. Just make sure your zoom function works well.
Oddly the Mercedes Benz display was the least impressive (or easily missed if we saw the wrong one), and the cover car for the show, the 2015 Corvette Z06, wasn’t even present, nor was the Camaro Z/28 although for some reason a regular Camaro SS was sectioned off from being touched. There was a ZL1 and an SS sedan as well. There were two Dodge Challenger R/Ts, but the Hellcat was
conspicuously missing as well. Lexus did have an RC-F though. Tesla again wasn’t present but considering the accessibility of their showrooms and presence in the Bay Area, it’s understandable. Porsche did not have a 918, and although there was a sinister Ferrari 599 GTO, an Enzo and McLaren 650S, do not expect to see a 458, LaFerrari or McLaren P1.
A couple of tips for attendees: For those who want to avoid convention center food, if even offered, the Metreon building around the corner on 4th street has multiple cuisines available and are quite used to handling convention center crowds. The Mediterranean restaurant at the corner of Howard and 4th also is good for a quick meal. There are a couple of other places within walking distance. If
you decide to park at the Moscone Center garage on 3rd street, once you get on 3rd, get into the right lane right away, as it is easy to miss.
Overall this is an excellent show, well worth attending and now running a proper length of time for many to enjoy, and if you’re an enthusiast, for more than one visit.
Picture album:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/SanJoseCarsExaminer/photos/?tab=album&album_id=586503771454338
The amazing McLaren P1 experience
It’s a UFO on the street. Its acceleration literally jerks your head back and then makes your stomach get light. It’s so absurdly quick, it makes you giggle. This isvthe 2015 McLaren P1, a carbon fiber road rocket that is as quick as a superbike.
Thanks to an automotive enthusiast in the tech field and no stranger to the track, including multiple plans for this hypercar, I was able to experience the ferocity multiple times first hand. The P1 is a mind-blowing, 903hp, 664lbs ft. torque, 3300lb g-force experience that is powered by a 3.8 liter twin-turbo V-8 producing 727 horsepower and a 177 horsepower electric motor that masks any turbo lag.
Combined with the 7-speed dual-clutch automated transmission, Motor Trend tested the car at 2.6 seconds 0-60mph and 9.8 @ 148.9 mph quarter mile. The top speed is 217mph which was decided as the limit by McLaren supposedly. This car can race superbikes and just maybe, beat them on
the track. I’d put money on it every time from a stoplight or Christmas tree with the traction provided by the mid-engine weight distribution.
It has more numbers than that. It produces 1,323 lbs. of downforce at 161 mph. The turbos reportedly produce 20.3 psi, very high for a street car. The windshield saves 8 lbs. over the 12C model and does have some detectable waviness at a certain angle. The carbon fiber occupant tub weighs just 198 lbs. The exhaust system is made from iconel (Forumula 1 stuff as well) and weighs just 37lbs. The race mode lowers the car 2” and raises the rear wing up to 11.8”. The brakes are not from the company that starts with a “B”. Rather, they are from Akebono, without slots or holes, with a shiny mirror-like finish and coated with silicon carbide. Only 375 P1s will be made and the MSRP is
$1,150,000 before options.
When asked about the P1 choice versus the other hypercar notables, the Porsche 918 is a heavier car with a more hybrid oriented powertrain, the Bugatti Veyron is very expensive to maintain and definitely not track oriented and the Pagani and Koenigsegg don’t have a nearby dealer along with the concern of having a not fully sorted car. The LaFerrari…well that remains to be seen.
Pedestrians stop and stare. People in cars smile and take pictures, thumbs up are common. The metallic Volcanic Orange combined with the black wheels and exposed carbon fiber make for a perfect color combination and contrast. It was chosen with classic McLaren orange in mind as well as the launch color for this model.
Hidden door buttons and a pull brings the gullwing doors swinging up. A wide, gloss finished carbon fiber sill requires a first-time passenger to sit butt first, and then swing your feet into the foot well. The seat is properly snug, and the outward view is excellent with a low, exposed carbon fiber dashboard. The ventilation pathways are seen in the contours of the dash. It’s a small cockpit but not claustrophobic. There is a small view out the back window and a very driver oriented display and controls. Not luxurious by any means, but certainly purpose built and very high quality.
With a push of the start button and “Whoomph! Whirr…” the mechanical soundtrack is immediately
prominent behind you. Somewhat reminiscent of the Ultima GTR I reviewed a few years back. The ride is quite firm, but not harsh or crashes. Gravel is clearly heard when picked up by the soft tires and thrown in the wheel wells. The short wheelbase will experience some resonant frequency bumping on inferior pavement. It probably had a radio, but I didn’t notice. This was an event, not a cruise. Entering an on-ramp at such a speed immediately produced giggles normally reserved for the race track. The 7-speed dual clutch transmission is very responsive with only paddles on the steering wheel and a reverse button on the center console.
It’s the acceleration that literally hits so hard. The owner, no stranger to ultra-high horsepower and extreme power-to-weight ratios reported that 80mph tends to be the starting point for being able to go full-throttle without wheel spin. One must watch for traffic far ahead due to the extreme rate of closing the distance. A couple of launches without launch control hit 60mph in what seemed under 3 seconds. By the time the brain processed the acceleration, the target speed was reached. At 70mph, getting to 100mph was hit just breathing on the throttle. The car is nuts.
On rough concrete at low speed, the car hooked up unexpectedly and rocketed forward, causing stomach churn. When traction control engages, it is a rapid fire stutter while still maintaining an extreme accelerative rate. Far different than the boring cars everyone else drives whose traction control is so intrusive, it causes a major slow-down and big torque dips.
Having experienced previous McLarens and really liking them, some issues were expected but the car was perfect when delivered. It was a low-key delivery and arrived at the dealer in “body glove”. The manual also states, no break-in required. So at 350 miles, the test ride had no mechanical limitations other than not using race mode due to the excessively low ground clearance. Also, the lack of turbo lag because of the hybrid assist makes it more enjoyable than the previous McLarens, per the owner . This one is rolling on Pirelli P-Zero Corsa tires but when a couple of track sessions are planned, it will be on Trofeo R track oriented rubber.
The P1 has all of the extreme functional styling elements of a an ultra-exotic; swoopy lines reminiscent of closed-cockpit prototype race cars, a huge adjustable rear spoiler, functional roof scoop, a pronounced rear diffuser and gullwing doors. The rear mesh grill allows a special look at the power train. Interestingly, the rear hatch is bolted in place, likely for weight savings but if hinged would add even more appeal when being shown. Expanding the theme further, if McLaren made a larger, albeit heavier version with a luxurious interior and more room, it would be the ultimate grand tourer.
But the P1, along with the Porsche 918 and LaFerrari, add another element to the term, “Driver’s car” because their limits and capabilities are so high, it takes a skilled and practiced driver to harness the power and exploit the limits. Luckily this one will be exploited, and we may hear some more details about it in the near future.
Footnote: This very car lapped Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in 1:30.72 seconds by champion race car driver Randy Pobst, nearly three seconds quicker than
the previous production car record.
Facebook photo album: https://www.facebook.com/pg/SanJoseCarsExaminer/photos/?tab=album&album_id=581513365286712
Porsche 911 GT3 versus Porsche 911 Carrera S
Guest author Matt Moreland whose recently published Porsche versus BMW comparison traded in his 2014 Porsche 911 Carrera S that had a documented engine stumble for a new 2014 Porsche 911 GT3. The GT3 was met with much controversy on Porsche's decision to only offer it with a dual-clutch automated transmission. A clutch pedal is no longer available in Porsche's track oriented street car. Matt's insightful and interesting comparison is below and no apologies are needed!
The Comparison:
Now that I’m done whining, let’s get on with comparing the differences. Before you start kicking and screaming, I understand this isn’t a fair comparison. I get that you’re thinking, “We all know the GT3 is better.” Of course it is! I understand that, but I thought it useful for those considering the two cars to make a comparison.
I got flamed pretty hard for making a comparison of the F80 M3 and C2S. Not
being a track guy, people were asking how I could possibly have the nerve to make a comparison. What did I know about cars since I don’t go to the track on weekends? Well, call me names if you want, I’m going to give my perspective on these two street cars for the regular guy that likes cars but doesn't necessarily have an SCCA pro card.
To start, my GT3 build cost another roughly $24K, at $156,000. Since my car wasn’t built by me, it has some things that I wouldn’t have optioned. Although, I’m not at all regretting getting any of the options that are on the car:
Sapphire Blue Metallic
Leather Interior in Black/Alcantara
Extended Range Fuel Tank
PCCB
Front Axle Lift System
Sound Package Plus
Fire Extinguisher
Smoking Package
LED Headlights incl PDLS
Light Design Package
Floor Mats
Sport Design Steering Wheel
Extended Interior Package, Door Panel in Leather/Alcantara
Pedals and Footrest in Aluminum
Automatically Dimming Mirrors and Integrated Rain Sensor
PCM
Seat belts in Silver Grey
Headlight Cleaning System Covers in Exterior Color
Fuel Cap with Aluminum Look Finish
Exterior:
The look of my White C2S was awesome. The Sport Design front bumper and side mirrors made the car look a little cleaner but meaner at the same time. I loved the design of the straight-edged, painted front lip. Dare I type this, I actually prefer the cleanliness of the Sport Design front bumper of the C2S over the GT3 with its metal grills and unfinished front lip. I don’t dislike it, but prefer the former. I do feel the car can look a little weird if you catch the wrong angle, so I was pretty set on getting a Tech Art wing at some point.
With Sport PASM the car was lower, but it was just tad bit high for my taste. I’m sure I would have lowered the car, but it felt like it would be blaspheming to mess with a 911’s suspension. Another nit-picky note, because optioned Burmester I had the rear deck-lid box for the XM antenna that I really hated looking at. At least the box wasn’t glued onto the roof like on the GT3. XM on the GT3 was a deal-breaker for me.
In my humble opinion, the ride height of the 991 GT3 is perfect. There would be no need to lower the car or add spacers as you can’t improve perfection. The extra concave in the rear wheel design is much more aesthetically appealing than the basic Carrera S wheel. I understand the need for Centerlocks but would probably prefer to have regular studded wheels.
The classic White with the Platinum Satin wheels was incredible. The white paint with dark accents and the bite of an AWE exhaust I installed just suited me. I had opted away from white so many times on previous cars, but I thought the color, or lacking of color, fit the car so well. In my opinion, it did another little touch of class to my harder-edged sports car. The car was a reflection of my personality,
blue collar roots walking around in a suit and tie. The car did a great job at blending in with the crowd, but those that knew, knew it was not something ordinary.
To contrast with the Sapphire Blue GT3, I have a totally different, yet still positive reaction. I obviously no longer blend in with the crowd. From the perspective of how this car looks, it yells rather than raises it proverbially voice. People are drawn to the car. The wider fenders, aerodynamic elements like the giant wing on the back, the super low stance, and the fact that the CAR IS BLUE make it elicit much, much more attention. I’m not sure that is a good thing, but the bright Blue GT3 definitely makes sense for a guy like me that is much different than what I would call a “regular” person. It fits very well as a weekend, special event car.
Interior:
The interiors are very similar with a few key differences in my two versions of the cars. Both had full leather and 4-way Sport Seats Plus. The GT3 has most of the extras, some of which I wouldn’t have chosen but am not complaining about having. For one, the GT3 comes with an ample amount of Platinum Deviated Stitching. I opted out of the $5,000ish option on the C2S. The stitching makes the leather dash and top of the doors much more noticeable. I always thought my plain black full leather in the C2S was a bit of a waste as the black stitching didn’t make it look much different than the standard interior.
I also have the aluminum pedals in the GT3, which I would highly recommend. I would have thought they would be slippery, but they have a texture to them that works quite well. One thing I was very pleased about, but would have never thought to get, is silver seat belts. I thought I would hate colored seat belts, but these are subtle and work very well with the deviated stitching. I do not have Sport
Chrono. I didn’t really like or dislike the clock in my C2S. I just didn’t find it necessary. I’m glad it’s not there. The clock would be just one more thing to vibrate.
My GT3 does have a few useless options that I would easily bag: Light Design Package, Extended Leather on Door Panels, and Fire Extinguisher. I’d like my 1,400 bucks back, but it’s a little late for that. For my children’s sake, I would have also loved to have had a back seat, but my three year-old son fits fine with his booster in the front seat pushed all the way back. Don't worry, the airbag senses his weight and turns off.
The biggest regret is not having Burmester. I know, I know… Listen to the engine. I get that, but I want a better stereo. I did think the Sound Package Plus option would sound worse than it does, but it certainly isn't good. I get a boatload more rattling in the GT3 interior. I’m guessing it’s the stiffer suspension. It would be nice to have a decent audio system just to mask all of the vibration. Call me a poser, but I’ll be putting aftermarket separates in the it at some point.
Steel vs. CCB brakes:
My C2S had the standard brakes. Oh man, were they awesome! The braking capabilities were something of another world to me. My stereotypical German sales guy, Heiner, said something to me that pops into my brain almost every time I approach a stop light, “Just remember the people behind you can’t stop like you can.” Boy was he right! It’s obviously a combination of massive calipers, great design, and a lightweight car, but I was instantly in love.
I still enjoyed them, despite the fact that they made a huge mess about five seconds after washing my car. I do actually enjoyed cleaning my wheels. It gives me a chance to admire the six-piston red calipers. I Opti-Coated the wheels and never had a problem getting them clean. The only thing that annoyed me was the rust. Living in Central FL, the humidity capital of the world, the rotors would rust over after washing my no matter what I did. Blowing drying, Hyde’s Rust Stopper Serum, pulling the car back and forth with the pedal pressed while pulling into the garage; none of that seemed to work. So I’d get a nice orange coating of the wheels after every wash. Oh well, it was worth it.
My best friend always tells me, “With Porsche brakes, comes Porsche brake dust.” Well, not anymore. I decided to lay down the cash for the Carbon Ceramic Option on my new F80 M3. I was excited about the look and pedal feel that I would get, but little did I know my life was about to change forever. If you are reading this, I’m guessing you have already surmised that I’m a little atypical, but the next few comments will solidify your suspicions. I will never be able to own a car with regular brakes again!
It has nothing to do with the stopping power or function of the brakes. It is simply the cleanliness of them. I know, I’m stupid to spend tens of thousands of dollars for clean wheels, but I don’t care what anyone thinks. I’m so in love that I will never be able to go back.
Since most of you actually care about the function over form, I will say I don’t think there is a perceptible difference on the street. The CCBs on the Porsche are still very noisy. The noise they make is pretty much the same as what I had on my Steel C2S brakes. For some reason, it doesn’t bother me as much on the GT3 as it did on the C2S. I feel like it’s almost expected to hear some squeal and squeak from the much more aggressive looking GT3. I would also say that if I were a track guy, I’d certainly be nervous to click the $10,000 option as I wouldn’t want to have to replace rotors.
9,000 RPM!!!!!!
One of my favorite things in life to date was the experience of taking my AP1 S2000 all the way to redline at 9,000 RPMs. I also would have loved taking my shortly owned Yamaha YZF-R6 to redline as well (if I wasn’t such a chicken) just to hear the engine get to 14 or 15K (I tried the motor cycle thing, it’s not for me). For whatever reason, it’s never been about huge horsepower/torque or having a car that looked the best. I think it has to do with the appreciation of the feat of engineering that a high revving engine accomplishes that gets me all warm and fuzzy.
So needless to say, one of the things that intrigued me more than anything about the GT3 over the C2S was the ability to rev to the stratosphere. In speaking about my X51 Powerkit equipped C2S, it was certainly no slouch. The linear pull to redline at 7,500 RPMs was nothing short of euphoric. I never once questioned its ability.
Dare I say, I still much prefer a short trip to the hardware store or gym if it were in the C2S? A surprising thing to me is the fact that the GT3 gets to operating temperature must faster than the C2S, but the little extra low-end grunt and the sound a C2S makes below 4,000 RPMS is a big winner for a short trip.
Since I'm on the topic of sound, let me discuss it for a minute. In my opinion, the sound a car makes is an integral part of the overall experience it can give you. Being a Porsche newbie, there are a few things about the GT3 I didn’t know or hadn’t considered.
1.) PSE: Out of the box the GT3 sounds good, but the PSE on the C2S is much better. Operation is so much better here on the C2S. When you press the PSE button on the C2S, the valves open and stay open at all RPMs.
The GT3 doesn’t work this way. You press the PSE button and the valves stay closed until it senses a certain amount of throttle modulation or hits around 4,000 RPMs. I figured out why they do this by forcing the valves open all of the time. There is a pretty annoying amount of drone/resonance at the lower RPM ranges. Also, it has been said that the valves are closed to allow for optimum back pressure giving maximum low-end torque. Since I spend most of my time cruising around town in a somewhat civilized fashion, I’m hoping the aftermarket can provide us with a drone-free
solution that allows the PSE in the GT3 to operate more like the C2S. The bypasses currently available don’t do this. They just amplify the current sound.
2.) Over-run: I didn’t realize there is no “over-run,” backfire, from the GT3. I know many love the artificially induced over-run from the C2S. I grew to tolerate it and at times really like it, but I tend to prefer a more organized exhaust note. When I first drove the GT3 home, I couldn’t put my finger on what was so different about the sound. I then saw a post in the 991 forum on Rennlist of a respected poster saying he was growing tired of the over-run and was considering a GT3. It was at that moment I realized why I thought the sound was so different, NO BACKFIRE!
3.) Downshifts: The C2S definitely wins here. I’m guessing it has to do with ultimate speed rather than drama. The GT3 is very businesslike on a downshift while the C2S gives you the maximum sensory stimulation. Whether it be PDK or Manual, the C2S is certainly more fun to change gears. I do understand the preference Porsche made in function over drama the GT3 provides, but I wish it were a little better in this department. Other than the few things I wasn’t aware of, there really is no big surprise here.
The exhaust note on the C2S is better for a car that is driven around town. The GT3 shines on the back roads when driving like a hooligan. I’m still holding onto hope that I can improve the low RPM noise the GT3 makes through the aftermarket but won’t be overly disappointed if I am never able to do so. Back to hitting redline. For legal reasons, I probably shouldn’t admit this, but I made it about 250 miles of quality RPM varying break-in until I just had to see what 9K felt like. Again, the experience of the C2S was awesome, but oh my the GT3! The sound that engine
makes completes me!
If the car hit redline at 6,000 RPMs I’d be cool with it. That would be the case if I didn’t know what happened after that point. The car has VTEC, yo! Ha, ha. It is almost as if the car leaps to 9K. The violence that takes place should not feel so right. The car shifts better, sounds better, feels better above the 6K line. It is clearly built to spend a lot of time there. I used to feel badly about taking my car to redline too often, like I was abusing it.
Well, the opposite holds true here. You feel like you are abusing the GT3 by driving around town. It begs you to let it loose. Wait until the first time you have the windows down, hit about hundred miles an hour with the engine howling, and your brain about explodes from the buffeting, sound of the engine, and connection to car through it's steering. It’s hard to explain the joy that accompanies this experience. I hope C2S owners reading this can take a little solace in the few wins I’ve given it above, but there is nothing else to say here other than: the C2S is very good, but the GT3 is epic!
Felt Technology:
The biggest question about owning and driving a GT3 on the street is, "How's the ride." Honestly it very compliant and rather nice. It certainly is stiffer and lower than the C2S, but it's not unbearable. I compare the GT3 ride to being similar to a C2S with Sport PASM that has been lowered and driven in Sport Suspension Mode. So it is definitely stiff, but still very streetable. I know it's compliant and others are doing it, but I don't think I'd want to be rolling around a place like NYC or Boston in this car.
An additional note, I'm so very glad my build had the Front Axle Lift added. I didn't want to pay for it, but I'd rather pay $3,500 for it than six grand for a new front bumper. I've used it like a hundred times in the first thousand miles. I never had a clearance issue with the C2S, but the GT3 is so much lower.
The biggest difference I have noticed in handling is the tires. The Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 are a marvel. With my limited driving skills I rarely notice much of a difference between high performance tires. But these tires are in a category of their own. Even a goof like me can recognize how great they are. They are so awesome, that even the lettering is better. When someone is looking at and asking about the car, I always point out the Felt Technology used to make the lettering in the rubber. That person inevitably calls some else they know over to show them the "felt" in the tires. Anyway, I think it's cool.
7MT vs. PDK-S transmissions:
Being a manual purist, I shocked a few friends with the GT3 purchase. I’m not going to lie. I was a little worried myself. It’s not like you can go out and test drive a 991 GT3 for a few hours to see if you like it. Other than my AP2 S2000, the 7MT in the C2S with Auto Rev Matching (I can’t heel-toe to save my life.) is the finest manual transmission I’ve ever driven. PDK was not even a consideration for me but in rolls the GT3 with the optimized version, the PDK-S.
Now I was already a bit on edge signing paperwork to lose tens of thousands of dollars on my trade and then spend tens of thousands of dollars more, but I almost had a panic attack shortly after I drove my new car off the lot. I got down the street about a mile, so the car hadn’t warmed up yet. The car clunked and clanged as it downshifted into first as I approached a stop. The car was angry with me. I
thought, “Oh my word! What have I done?” I had just traded my messed up car for a more expensive one that’s already broken!
I’ll admit it. I actually pulled over and contemplated taking it back to the dealership. I remembered others saying the GT3 has always been a little finicky when cold, so I charged on home. I later made a post on Rennlist asking if this was normal. It is. So if you get a GT3 be ready for
some a bunch of chatter and noise you may not have been expecting.
Being an engineer at heart, I should give up the inferior technology of the manual transmission. I tried on my Audi S4 with the awful DSG so called double clutch auto piece of garbage. I hated every second of it. Naturally, I was a little gun shy getting the PDK-S. All of my major complaints have been addressed. The car doesn’t move when you let off the brake. You can really feel the clutch engage when you roll on the throttle from a stop.
I don’t much care about the automatic modes, but they are both no good for me. The normal auto mode gets you into 7th gear before you can blink and the PDK-Sport mode keeps you at 4,000 RPMs plus. I’m rolling around in manual mode all of the time. The other thing they addressed is the feel of both the paddles and the shift lever. The DCT M3/M5 have these junky plastic levers that feel cheap. I’m so pleased with the stiffness of both the paddles and the stick in the GT3. The paddles are made of metal and require a nice amount of pressure to depress.
The stick feels very heavy and clicks into place without a hint of plastic play. Porsche did us right with the substantial feel you get from both. The other great news is that unlike most other cars, “manual” actually means fully manual! The tranny won’t shift for you. It won’t kick down a gear. It allows you to bog the engine. It doesn’t short shift you at redline. You can bounce the thing off the rev limiter if you aren’t careful. I love that. Let me control the car, not the computer. The only thing that it does automatically for you is downshift the car at the last second as you approach a stop.
The best part is the ability pull both paddles to disengage the clutch. This allows me to take control
when I want. For example, if I want to act like a teenager and rev the engine under an overpass, I can.
The big question here is, knowing what I know now, do I wish I could have a manual? I think the answer to that is that I already have a manual. It’s just an automated manual.
I honestly believe the GT3 revs too violently and quickly to be trying to watch the tach, stay focused on the road, engage a clutch, and shift a gear. It’s just too much to process with the speed of the car. Porsche is right to take this decision away from us. They are saving us from ourselves. PDK-S has made a believer out of me, and I haven’t even used launch control yet.
Feels Much More Like a Super Car:
My original intent was to drive my M3 half of the time and the C2S the other half. With the GT3, that plan has changed. There is obviously a little less practicality for me as I don’t have a back seat. I can’t load up the kids in the back, so the GT3 will primarily be a solo manned vehicle. Even though the GT3 is built on the same platform and can be used every day, the slight pushing of the envelope with the color or the giant wing seems to create much more separation between my “everyday” M3 and the new car.
I just don’t feel right taking it to my office regularly, so it has become a true weekend car. Because of this, I will be putting less milage on the car and should be keeping it longer. This is a good thing because I had to sign a proverbial 5 year no new car contract with the wife.
Even though you are sitting in a similarly appointed cockpit with the exact same steering wheel, there is something about looking out the rear window and seeing the giant wing while the motor climbs RPMs at lightning speed that makes it feel much more like a “super car.” It also elicits significantly more attention than I’m used to getting. I tend to prefer to blend into the crowd, but that goes completely out the window with this thing. I’m concerned someone is going to break there neck while snapping their head around to quickly to catch a glimpse.
Verdict:
The C2S certainly has its place and probably fits better into a life of boring driving like mine. But… The sheer aggressive beauty of the car that looks like it’s going a hundred miles an hour while sitting in a parking space, makes the GT3 irresistible to me. The timelessness of the classic 911 look combined with modern technology and comforts makes the 991 version of the GT3 perfect for a guy like me.
Some argue that’s it too soft. I disagree and think Porsche built a more every day purpose built car that can appeal to the softie like me while still appeasing the hard-core weekend racer. I believe its the best of both worlds. I’m sorry to waste your time with such an unfair comparison, but I felt compelled to share my thoughts. I know everyone tends to be a fanboy about their own purchases, but I could easily say that if I died tomorrow, my car pursuit would be complete!
Thanks for reading.
Picture album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1022990657805645.1073741901.378354382269279&type=1&l=e9fe37b9f1
The Comparison:
Now that I’m done whining, let’s get on with comparing the differences. Before you start kicking and screaming, I understand this isn’t a fair comparison. I get that you’re thinking, “We all know the GT3 is better.” Of course it is! I understand that, but I thought it useful for those considering the two cars to make a comparison.
I got flamed pretty hard for making a comparison of the F80 M3 and C2S. Not
being a track guy, people were asking how I could possibly have the nerve to make a comparison. What did I know about cars since I don’t go to the track on weekends? Well, call me names if you want, I’m going to give my perspective on these two street cars for the regular guy that likes cars but doesn't necessarily have an SCCA pro card.
To start, my GT3 build cost another roughly $24K, at $156,000. Since my car wasn’t built by me, it has some things that I wouldn’t have optioned. Although, I’m not at all regretting getting any of the options that are on the car:
Sapphire Blue Metallic
Leather Interior in Black/Alcantara
Extended Range Fuel Tank
PCCB
Front Axle Lift System
Sound Package Plus
Fire Extinguisher
Smoking Package
LED Headlights incl PDLS
Light Design Package
Floor Mats
Sport Design Steering Wheel
Extended Interior Package, Door Panel in Leather/Alcantara
Pedals and Footrest in Aluminum
Automatically Dimming Mirrors and Integrated Rain Sensor
PCM
Seat belts in Silver Grey
Headlight Cleaning System Covers in Exterior Color
Fuel Cap with Aluminum Look Finish
Exterior:
The look of my White C2S was awesome. The Sport Design front bumper and side mirrors made the car look a little cleaner but meaner at the same time. I loved the design of the straight-edged, painted front lip. Dare I type this, I actually prefer the cleanliness of the Sport Design front bumper of the C2S over the GT3 with its metal grills and unfinished front lip. I don’t dislike it, but prefer the former. I do feel the car can look a little weird if you catch the wrong angle, so I was pretty set on getting a Tech Art wing at some point.
With Sport PASM the car was lower, but it was just tad bit high for my taste. I’m sure I would have lowered the car, but it felt like it would be blaspheming to mess with a 911’s suspension. Another nit-picky note, because optioned Burmester I had the rear deck-lid box for the XM antenna that I really hated looking at. At least the box wasn’t glued onto the roof like on the GT3. XM on the GT3 was a deal-breaker for me.
In my humble opinion, the ride height of the 991 GT3 is perfect. There would be no need to lower the car or add spacers as you can’t improve perfection. The extra concave in the rear wheel design is much more aesthetically appealing than the basic Carrera S wheel. I understand the need for Centerlocks but would probably prefer to have regular studded wheels.
The classic White with the Platinum Satin wheels was incredible. The white paint with dark accents and the bite of an AWE exhaust I installed just suited me. I had opted away from white so many times on previous cars, but I thought the color, or lacking of color, fit the car so well. In my opinion, it did another little touch of class to my harder-edged sports car. The car was a reflection of my personality,
blue collar roots walking around in a suit and tie. The car did a great job at blending in with the crowd, but those that knew, knew it was not something ordinary.
To contrast with the Sapphire Blue GT3, I have a totally different, yet still positive reaction. I obviously no longer blend in with the crowd. From the perspective of how this car looks, it yells rather than raises it proverbially voice. People are drawn to the car. The wider fenders, aerodynamic elements like the giant wing on the back, the super low stance, and the fact that the CAR IS BLUE make it elicit much, much more attention. I’m not sure that is a good thing, but the bright Blue GT3 definitely makes sense for a guy like me that is much different than what I would call a “regular” person. It fits very well as a weekend, special event car.
Interior:
The interiors are very similar with a few key differences in my two versions of the cars. Both had full leather and 4-way Sport Seats Plus. The GT3 has most of the extras, some of which I wouldn’t have chosen but am not complaining about having. For one, the GT3 comes with an ample amount of Platinum Deviated Stitching. I opted out of the $5,000ish option on the C2S. The stitching makes the leather dash and top of the doors much more noticeable. I always thought my plain black full leather in the C2S was a bit of a waste as the black stitching didn’t make it look much different than the standard interior.
I also have the aluminum pedals in the GT3, which I would highly recommend. I would have thought they would be slippery, but they have a texture to them that works quite well. One thing I was very pleased about, but would have never thought to get, is silver seat belts. I thought I would hate colored seat belts, but these are subtle and work very well with the deviated stitching. I do not have Sport
Chrono. I didn’t really like or dislike the clock in my C2S. I just didn’t find it necessary. I’m glad it’s not there. The clock would be just one more thing to vibrate.
My GT3 does have a few useless options that I would easily bag: Light Design Package, Extended Leather on Door Panels, and Fire Extinguisher. I’d like my 1,400 bucks back, but it’s a little late for that. For my children’s sake, I would have also loved to have had a back seat, but my three year-old son fits fine with his booster in the front seat pushed all the way back. Don't worry, the airbag senses his weight and turns off.
The biggest regret is not having Burmester. I know, I know… Listen to the engine. I get that, but I want a better stereo. I did think the Sound Package Plus option would sound worse than it does, but it certainly isn't good. I get a boatload more rattling in the GT3 interior. I’m guessing it’s the stiffer suspension. It would be nice to have a decent audio system just to mask all of the vibration. Call me a poser, but I’ll be putting aftermarket separates in the it at some point.
Steel vs. CCB brakes:
My C2S had the standard brakes. Oh man, were they awesome! The braking capabilities were something of another world to me. My stereotypical German sales guy, Heiner, said something to me that pops into my brain almost every time I approach a stop light, “Just remember the people behind you can’t stop like you can.” Boy was he right! It’s obviously a combination of massive calipers, great design, and a lightweight car, but I was instantly in love.
I still enjoyed them, despite the fact that they made a huge mess about five seconds after washing my car. I do actually enjoyed cleaning my wheels. It gives me a chance to admire the six-piston red calipers. I Opti-Coated the wheels and never had a problem getting them clean. The only thing that annoyed me was the rust. Living in Central FL, the humidity capital of the world, the rotors would rust over after washing my no matter what I did. Blowing drying, Hyde’s Rust Stopper Serum, pulling the car back and forth with the pedal pressed while pulling into the garage; none of that seemed to work. So I’d get a nice orange coating of the wheels after every wash. Oh well, it was worth it.
My best friend always tells me, “With Porsche brakes, comes Porsche brake dust.” Well, not anymore. I decided to lay down the cash for the Carbon Ceramic Option on my new F80 M3. I was excited about the look and pedal feel that I would get, but little did I know my life was about to change forever. If you are reading this, I’m guessing you have already surmised that I’m a little atypical, but the next few comments will solidify your suspicions. I will never be able to own a car with regular brakes again!
It has nothing to do with the stopping power or function of the brakes. It is simply the cleanliness of them. I know, I’m stupid to spend tens of thousands of dollars for clean wheels, but I don’t care what anyone thinks. I’m so in love that I will never be able to go back.
Since most of you actually care about the function over form, I will say I don’t think there is a perceptible difference on the street. The CCBs on the Porsche are still very noisy. The noise they make is pretty much the same as what I had on my Steel C2S brakes. For some reason, it doesn’t bother me as much on the GT3 as it did on the C2S. I feel like it’s almost expected to hear some squeal and squeak from the much more aggressive looking GT3. I would also say that if I were a track guy, I’d certainly be nervous to click the $10,000 option as I wouldn’t want to have to replace rotors.
9,000 RPM!!!!!!
One of my favorite things in life to date was the experience of taking my AP1 S2000 all the way to redline at 9,000 RPMs. I also would have loved taking my shortly owned Yamaha YZF-R6 to redline as well (if I wasn’t such a chicken) just to hear the engine get to 14 or 15K (I tried the motor cycle thing, it’s not for me). For whatever reason, it’s never been about huge horsepower/torque or having a car that looked the best. I think it has to do with the appreciation of the feat of engineering that a high revving engine accomplishes that gets me all warm and fuzzy.
So needless to say, one of the things that intrigued me more than anything about the GT3 over the C2S was the ability to rev to the stratosphere. In speaking about my X51 Powerkit equipped C2S, it was certainly no slouch. The linear pull to redline at 7,500 RPMs was nothing short of euphoric. I never once questioned its ability.
Dare I say, I still much prefer a short trip to the hardware store or gym if it were in the C2S? A surprising thing to me is the fact that the GT3 gets to operating temperature must faster than the C2S, but the little extra low-end grunt and the sound a C2S makes below 4,000 RPMS is a big winner for a short trip.
Since I'm on the topic of sound, let me discuss it for a minute. In my opinion, the sound a car makes is an integral part of the overall experience it can give you. Being a Porsche newbie, there are a few things about the GT3 I didn’t know or hadn’t considered.
1.) PSE: Out of the box the GT3 sounds good, but the PSE on the C2S is much better. Operation is so much better here on the C2S. When you press the PSE button on the C2S, the valves open and stay open at all RPMs.
The GT3 doesn’t work this way. You press the PSE button and the valves stay closed until it senses a certain amount of throttle modulation or hits around 4,000 RPMs. I figured out why they do this by forcing the valves open all of the time. There is a pretty annoying amount of drone/resonance at the lower RPM ranges. Also, it has been said that the valves are closed to allow for optimum back pressure giving maximum low-end torque. Since I spend most of my time cruising around town in a somewhat civilized fashion, I’m hoping the aftermarket can provide us with a drone-free
solution that allows the PSE in the GT3 to operate more like the C2S. The bypasses currently available don’t do this. They just amplify the current sound.
2.) Over-run: I didn’t realize there is no “over-run,” backfire, from the GT3. I know many love the artificially induced over-run from the C2S. I grew to tolerate it and at times really like it, but I tend to prefer a more organized exhaust note. When I first drove the GT3 home, I couldn’t put my finger on what was so different about the sound. I then saw a post in the 991 forum on Rennlist of a respected poster saying he was growing tired of the over-run and was considering a GT3. It was at that moment I realized why I thought the sound was so different, NO BACKFIRE!
3.) Downshifts: The C2S definitely wins here. I’m guessing it has to do with ultimate speed rather than drama. The GT3 is very businesslike on a downshift while the C2S gives you the maximum sensory stimulation. Whether it be PDK or Manual, the C2S is certainly more fun to change gears. I do understand the preference Porsche made in function over drama the GT3 provides, but I wish it were a little better in this department. Other than the few things I wasn’t aware of, there really is no big surprise here.
The exhaust note on the C2S is better for a car that is driven around town. The GT3 shines on the back roads when driving like a hooligan. I’m still holding onto hope that I can improve the low RPM noise the GT3 makes through the aftermarket but won’t be overly disappointed if I am never able to do so. Back to hitting redline. For legal reasons, I probably shouldn’t admit this, but I made it about 250 miles of quality RPM varying break-in until I just had to see what 9K felt like. Again, the experience of the C2S was awesome, but oh my the GT3! The sound that engine
makes completes me!
If the car hit redline at 6,000 RPMs I’d be cool with it. That would be the case if I didn’t know what happened after that point. The car has VTEC, yo! Ha, ha. It is almost as if the car leaps to 9K. The violence that takes place should not feel so right. The car shifts better, sounds better, feels better above the 6K line. It is clearly built to spend a lot of time there. I used to feel badly about taking my car to redline too often, like I was abusing it.
Well, the opposite holds true here. You feel like you are abusing the GT3 by driving around town. It begs you to let it loose. Wait until the first time you have the windows down, hit about hundred miles an hour with the engine howling, and your brain about explodes from the buffeting, sound of the engine, and connection to car through it's steering. It’s hard to explain the joy that accompanies this experience. I hope C2S owners reading this can take a little solace in the few wins I’ve given it above, but there is nothing else to say here other than: the C2S is very good, but the GT3 is epic!
Felt Technology:
The biggest question about owning and driving a GT3 on the street is, "How's the ride." Honestly it very compliant and rather nice. It certainly is stiffer and lower than the C2S, but it's not unbearable. I compare the GT3 ride to being similar to a C2S with Sport PASM that has been lowered and driven in Sport Suspension Mode. So it is definitely stiff, but still very streetable. I know it's compliant and others are doing it, but I don't think I'd want to be rolling around a place like NYC or Boston in this car.
An additional note, I'm so very glad my build had the Front Axle Lift added. I didn't want to pay for it, but I'd rather pay $3,500 for it than six grand for a new front bumper. I've used it like a hundred times in the first thousand miles. I never had a clearance issue with the C2S, but the GT3 is so much lower.
The biggest difference I have noticed in handling is the tires. The Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 are a marvel. With my limited driving skills I rarely notice much of a difference between high performance tires. But these tires are in a category of their own. Even a goof like me can recognize how great they are. They are so awesome, that even the lettering is better. When someone is looking at and asking about the car, I always point out the Felt Technology used to make the lettering in the rubber. That person inevitably calls some else they know over to show them the "felt" in the tires. Anyway, I think it's cool.
7MT vs. PDK-S transmissions:
Being a manual purist, I shocked a few friends with the GT3 purchase. I’m not going to lie. I was a little worried myself. It’s not like you can go out and test drive a 991 GT3 for a few hours to see if you like it. Other than my AP2 S2000, the 7MT in the C2S with Auto Rev Matching (I can’t heel-toe to save my life.) is the finest manual transmission I’ve ever driven. PDK was not even a consideration for me but in rolls the GT3 with the optimized version, the PDK-S.
Now I was already a bit on edge signing paperwork to lose tens of thousands of dollars on my trade and then spend tens of thousands of dollars more, but I almost had a panic attack shortly after I drove my new car off the lot. I got down the street about a mile, so the car hadn’t warmed up yet. The car clunked and clanged as it downshifted into first as I approached a stop. The car was angry with me. I
thought, “Oh my word! What have I done?” I had just traded my messed up car for a more expensive one that’s already broken!
I’ll admit it. I actually pulled over and contemplated taking it back to the dealership. I remembered others saying the GT3 has always been a little finicky when cold, so I charged on home. I later made a post on Rennlist asking if this was normal. It is. So if you get a GT3 be ready for
some a bunch of chatter and noise you may not have been expecting.
Being an engineer at heart, I should give up the inferior technology of the manual transmission. I tried on my Audi S4 with the awful DSG so called double clutch auto piece of garbage. I hated every second of it. Naturally, I was a little gun shy getting the PDK-S. All of my major complaints have been addressed. The car doesn’t move when you let off the brake. You can really feel the clutch engage when you roll on the throttle from a stop.
I don’t much care about the automatic modes, but they are both no good for me. The normal auto mode gets you into 7th gear before you can blink and the PDK-Sport mode keeps you at 4,000 RPMs plus. I’m rolling around in manual mode all of the time. The other thing they addressed is the feel of both the paddles and the shift lever. The DCT M3/M5 have these junky plastic levers that feel cheap. I’m so pleased with the stiffness of both the paddles and the stick in the GT3. The paddles are made of metal and require a nice amount of pressure to depress.
The stick feels very heavy and clicks into place without a hint of plastic play. Porsche did us right with the substantial feel you get from both. The other great news is that unlike most other cars, “manual” actually means fully manual! The tranny won’t shift for you. It won’t kick down a gear. It allows you to bog the engine. It doesn’t short shift you at redline. You can bounce the thing off the rev limiter if you aren’t careful. I love that. Let me control the car, not the computer. The only thing that it does automatically for you is downshift the car at the last second as you approach a stop.
The best part is the ability pull both paddles to disengage the clutch. This allows me to take control
when I want. For example, if I want to act like a teenager and rev the engine under an overpass, I can.
The big question here is, knowing what I know now, do I wish I could have a manual? I think the answer to that is that I already have a manual. It’s just an automated manual.
I honestly believe the GT3 revs too violently and quickly to be trying to watch the tach, stay focused on the road, engage a clutch, and shift a gear. It’s just too much to process with the speed of the car. Porsche is right to take this decision away from us. They are saving us from ourselves. PDK-S has made a believer out of me, and I haven’t even used launch control yet.
Feels Much More Like a Super Car:
My original intent was to drive my M3 half of the time and the C2S the other half. With the GT3, that plan has changed. There is obviously a little less practicality for me as I don’t have a back seat. I can’t load up the kids in the back, so the GT3 will primarily be a solo manned vehicle. Even though the GT3 is built on the same platform and can be used every day, the slight pushing of the envelope with the color or the giant wing seems to create much more separation between my “everyday” M3 and the new car.
I just don’t feel right taking it to my office regularly, so it has become a true weekend car. Because of this, I will be putting less milage on the car and should be keeping it longer. This is a good thing because I had to sign a proverbial 5 year no new car contract with the wife.
Even though you are sitting in a similarly appointed cockpit with the exact same steering wheel, there is something about looking out the rear window and seeing the giant wing while the motor climbs RPMs at lightning speed that makes it feel much more like a “super car.” It also elicits significantly more attention than I’m used to getting. I tend to prefer to blend into the crowd, but that goes completely out the window with this thing. I’m concerned someone is going to break there neck while snapping their head around to quickly to catch a glimpse.
Verdict:
The C2S certainly has its place and probably fits better into a life of boring driving like mine. But… The sheer aggressive beauty of the car that looks like it’s going a hundred miles an hour while sitting in a parking space, makes the GT3 irresistible to me. The timelessness of the classic 911 look combined with modern technology and comforts makes the 991 version of the GT3 perfect for a guy like me.
Some argue that’s it too soft. I disagree and think Porsche built a more every day purpose built car that can appeal to the softie like me while still appeasing the hard-core weekend racer. I believe its the best of both worlds. I’m sorry to waste your time with such an unfair comparison, but I felt compelled to share my thoughts. I know everyone tends to be a fanboy about their own purchases, but I could easily say that if I died tomorrow, my car pursuit would be complete!
Thanks for reading.
Picture album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1022990657805645.1073741901.378354382269279&type=1&l=e9fe37b9f1
Porsche 911 Carrera S versus BMW M3
Recently a member of 6speedonline.com shared his experience with his brand new 2015 BMW M3 sedan and his 2014 Porsche 911 Carrera S. You’ll find some fascinating observations and details from guest author Matt Moreland of The Villages, Florida. The write-up was deservedly well received and considered spot-on.
First some background. This generation of the M3 is referred to the F80 and the latest 911 is the 991. BMW now calls the sedan the M3 and the coupe the M4. It is very conservatively rated at 425hp with a twin turbo in-line 6 cylinder 3 liter engine. This Porsche 911, an “S” model with the X51 power kit option is rated at 430hp from a 3.8 liter boxer (horizontally opposed) 6 cylinder. One very notable aspect of this review is they both have manual transmissions! The BMW is a six speed manual but the Porsche has a 7 speed manual.
As a side note, the overdrive ratio for the Porsche starts with 6th gear. The 7 speed transmission in the Corvette is a 1:1 in 4th and 5th is an overdrive.
My comparison of the 991 911 vs. F80 M3:
I've hit the 1,500 mile mark on my new F80, so I guess it's time to type out some of my thoughts on the car. I decided to follow the proper break in procedure and have kept the car below 5,500 RPMs, other than hitting the dyno for a baseline run just before doing have the first service done.
Unlike my E92 where I had a dozen parts waiting on the car for install, this time I decided to keep the car stock for a month or so before doing any modifications. I wanted to enjoy the process rather than feel the pressure to be in the garage for 5 straight days putting every part on the car. My OCD tendencies won't allow me to rest until every last detail is done, so this time I learned to take it slowly.
I thought I’d approach my comments as more of a comparison rather than just copy what others have said about the car. I am fortunate enough to have both a 2014 “991” 911 and 2015 F80 M3 in my garage at the same time. The 911 is the benchmark for which I have set my standards, so I thought it useful to compare my new M3 to it. I will say I was a bit afraid the M3 would make me regret spending so much more on the 911. Let’s analyze my opinions to determine whether the 911 is worth it at nearly one and three-quarter times the cost.
For comparison sake, here are the two specs:
2015 M3 Sedan: $62,000
Mineral White Metallic: $550
Sakhir Orange/Black Extended Merino Leather: $950
Lighting Package: $1,900
19" Black Light-Alloy Wheel Double-SpokeStyle 437M: $1,200
Adaptive M Suspension: $1,000
M Carbon Cermaic Brakes: $8,150
Manual Transmission: $0
Harman Kardon Surround Sound System: $875
Destination & Handling: $925
Total MSRP as Built: $77,550
I received $2,000 off MSRP: $75,550
911 Carrera S: $98,900
Burmester Audio Package: $5,290
White: $0
Leather Interior in Black: $3,690
SportDesign Side Mirrors: $600
Model Designation "911": $0
Sport Design Front Fascia: $2,990
Bi-Xenon Headlights in Black incl. PDLS: $1,485
Headlight Cleaning System Cover Painted in Exterior Color: $295
PASM Sport Suspension: $890
7-speed Manual Transmission: $0
20-inch Carrera S Wheels: $0
Wheels Painted Platinum Satin: $950
Instrument Dials in Black: $0
Luggage Net in Passenger Footwell: $0
Smoking Package: $0
Sport Seats Plus (4-way): $440
Sport Design Steering Wheel: $250
Destination: $995
Vehicle MSRP: $134,575 (I got 6% off that sticker.)
Exterior:
I was a little surprised that the M3 doesn't look as big as I thought it would. I purposely hadn't seen one in person prior to heading to the Performance Center to pick mine up. After looking at the measurements, I thought it would look and feel large. I must say though, parked next to the Porsche in the garage, it looks smaller than I expected. I think that's a good thing.
I am very pleased with the contrast of the two opposite exterior designs of the cars. The angular dimensions, aggressive fenders, and carbon fiber roof of the M3 differs greatly from the smooth curves and carefully crafted layout of the 911. The cars are different enough that they cover enough of a design spectrum to appeal to my personality. This may sound insane, but I really feel like the look of these two cars fit me as a person. Whatever that means…
The paint is really, really good on the M3. Dare I say it is almost as good as the Porsche? There is more orange peel, but the Mineral White is one of my favorite things about the car. My Le Mans Blue E92 paint was not great. It would scratch super easily, was prone to water etching, and generally gave me nothing but headaches. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the blue, but I think this Mineral White is
something special. I’ve never been so excited about paint before.
As I tend to do, I was obsessing about how good a job the Performance Center was going do at prepping the car. Most dealerships totally massacre the paint, adding tons of scratches and swirls. Well, they did a really great job. All I needed to do was a finishing polish and wax, and the paint was jeweled and flawless.
Chrome! Call me new school, but I hate chrome. It is cheap and, frankly, makes the car look old. The only piece of chrome on the 911 was the badge. Why in the world would BMW do black trim all over the car and then put chrome grills/gills on this thing? Oh well, easy (rather expensive) fix.
Interior:
This is a little tougher to compare. You have the practical, “family” Sedan versus the pure-bread sports car, so I’ll approach this more from a form standpoint rather than function. Although, my three year-old son can sit in the back of the 911, it won’t be long before he’s too big.
The M3 wins the function part hands down. I’m 6’2” and was pleasantly surprised that I can sit behind my driver’s seat that is positioned properly for me and my knees barely touch the back of the seat.The first thought that came to mind when I started thinking about comparing the two interiors was that the 911 feels very 2011 and the M3 has the technology that makes it much more current. This makes sense as the 991 was designed several years ago. I’m not saying it’s bad. It just gives the aura of an ever so slightly out-dated look. Being newly designed, the M3 obviously wins in this department.
Dare I say, I actually use the Nav in the M3 where the 911 I break out the iPhone. Since we are on the subject of Technology, let’s talk Burmester versus HK. Now you may think this would be laughable, and it pretty much is. But, I’m an audio junkie and have found the HK to be surprising good in comparison. The Burmester is much better, but the HK holds isn’t bad. I was surprised by this one. I thought I would hate the HK system. Having metal dome tweeters, I assumed it would be harsh sounding. Again, it’s not great, but it’s good enough. I won’t be upgrading the system in the M3. I thought I would have wanted to do so.
The seats and seating position are really no comparison. I’ve read how great the new seats are in the M3, but the Porsche seats are worlds better. In looking at the design of the two, I’m guessing the 911 seats are a crap load lighter as well. The leather is also much better in the Porsche.
I opted for full leather in the 911, but only chose Extended in the M3. The reason I decided against doing full leather again is that I hardly notice it in the Porsche. I thought to myself that I’ve never had a leather dash before, and I’ve been okay. So no full leather in the M3, and I’m not disappointed. I was stressing about this while waiting for my car to show-up, but I’m glad I didn’t check the box. I wouldn’t order full leather again on a 911.
I am pleased with the nice touches like deviated stitching on the door panels at no extra cost in the M3. Porsche charges about $4K to do something similar. Like I said the 911 leather is nicer and the fit and finish it a little better, but I think that would be expected at its price point. I certainly feel good about both interiors. I think I’d have to give the M3 a slight edge overall, but they are both very nice.
6 speed manual transmission in the M3 versus the 7 speed manual in the 911:
I’m still a row through the gears kind of guy. I won’t be tracking either car, so being connected to the car by a manual transmission is more important to me than being a few tenths of a second faster. I’m a Honda raised car guy, and the S2000 has spoiled me.
The 6MT in the F80 is much improved over the E92, but it still pretty much sucks. It just doesn’t suck enough to make me complain about it every time I drive the car. This car doesn’t rev nearly as fast as its NA V8 predecessor, so this makes it much easier to handle the car at redline than before. That, and it is has a much shorter, more direct gate to 2nd gear. Also, I don’t detect any notchiness. It is rather smooth but is just a bit numb for my liking.
The gearbox in comparison to the 911 is really no contest. The Porsche is smoother, yet provides a more mechanical feel; has shorter, faster throws; and is better positioned in the car. The only knock on the 911 is that the shifter does block the A/C and radio controls, but I don’t care. It is in the right spot for the best shifting position.
Brakes
Carbon Ceramics, “Oh how I love thee, let me count the ways!” I’m sure all of you are going to give me a hard-time over the following comment. I ordered the CCBs on the M3 primarily due to the cleanliness of them. There is no rust, basically no dust, and they look awesome. So call me ridiculous, but the detail freak in me will never be able to get normal rotors again.
As far as how they work, the braking exercise at the Performance Center to teach how to turn while ABS is engaged was a waste of time. The brakes were so good that we were stopping twenty feet before the turn. The M5s were rolling almost into the grass. I’ve had a few little squeaks while lightly
braking and turning the wheel, but they have been silent otherwise. They make me smile every time I walk up to the car. Washing my wheels is a dream!
To compare the two cars, the CCBs on the M3 are great, but braking is where you really notice the size and weight difference of the two cars. Being 400ish lbs. lighter, the 911 seems to stop more effortlessly. Even though the 911 may outperform, I much prefer the look and feel of the M3 brakes. The 911 steel brakes make a bunch of noise, squeaking, and squealing. I will be ordering CCBs on any future car despite the cost. If you are on the fence like I was, spend the money. You won’t be sorry. I promise.
The Experience
I’m a sucker for the experience. Whether it is at a hotel stay or buying a computer, I want to feel a connection. I want to desire to behind the wheel. I’m not sure I have the words to describe the difference in experience between the two cars, but I’m going to try.
Let’s start with steering. I understand why there are lots of complaints about the transition to electric steering. I’ve read the articles from BMW about their new system in the F8X platform being the best in the world. Well in my novice opinion, they are a distant second. The C2S is much, much better. The only thing better about the M3 is the diameter of the steering wheel, but I’m not sure the fat wheel would work in the 911. It would feel too big. So the 911 wins this hands down.
Now it’s time to talk about the important stuff, throttle response/power delivery. I not sure which car is faster. My guess is they will be very close with the M3 slightly winning from a roll. Off the line, I think it would be much easier to win in the C2S due to weight over the rear wheels. Throttle response is the part that really gets me in a comparison. This “Honda Boy” is used to high-revving, wind-it-out motors.
The C2S begs me to do this, and the M3 makes me feel as though I can but don’t need to do so. If you look at the pattern of car purchases in my past, it would make sense that I much prefer the snappy response of a naturally aspirated engine. You push the pedal in the M3 and you just don’t get the same reaction from the car. Don’t get me wrong, the torque of the M3 is way cool, but the car doesn’t
respond the same to putting your foot down. The 911 springs into immediate action, while the M3 eventually breaks your neck.
Both are fast and perform amazingly well, but the C2S easily wins this for me. Although, I am starting to get used to and really enjoy the flood of torque and whistle of the spooling turbos while in the M car. The sound these cars make could not be any different. Both of them have an artificial enhancement to get sound into the cabin, but for some reason I turn my nose up at BMW’s solution and applaud Porsche’s. The fake sound the M3 is a little offensive. It offends my sense of intelligence. It doesn’t sound bad, it just sounds weird. I think the car sounds okay from the outside, but I only hope an aftermarket exhaust will make it substantially better. Of the many virtues of the M3 the sounds it makes are not one of them.
In contrast, I think the sound symposer in the 911 is genius and really appreciate it. I will say coming from the very organized sounding S65, the 911 took some getting used to. The chaos of backfires and scream at WOT was very different. I’ve grown to become a huge fan of the sound the C2S makes. It is very additive to the experience of driving the car versus the M3’s sound being a negative.
Handling is another no contest. When I picked up the M3 from the Performance Center and spent a day and a half driving through mountain and back roads home to Central Florida, I started to question why anyone would spend so much more on a Porsche. The car felt so balanced and light on its feet. I was immediately in love and began to forget what the 911 felt like.
Well my friends, that euphoria was short lived the morning after I got home. I jumped in the driver’s seat of the C2S, started it up, and immediately knew this was no comparison. When I first got the 911 I had zero experience with driving the car. I only took a short test drive before ordering. Since an early age, I knew I wanted one, but I hadn’t ever actually driven it. I was shocked at how taught and stiff the car was. Now I have Sport PASM, but I could imagine most older gentleman that buy these cars would not take kindly to the aggressive factory suspension settings. That being said, the stiffness is not rough and the overall balance is so wonderful that I can’t put it into words.
The M3 is very good for what it is, but I almost get the sense that BMW engineers artificially made the car ride rougher to instill the sense of a connection with the road. I really notice this on my neighborhood road. The C2S provides all the right feedback while the M3 gives me a bit too much while still feeling a bit more numb. Again, it’s hard to explain. The M3 is good, but the 911 is epic.
So I’m a huge fan of both cars. I love them both in very different ways. I wouldn’t want to live without either one. So is the 911 worth that much more than the M3? I believe so. The performance difference doesn’t even come close to warranting the extra cash that needs to be given up, but… THE EXPERIENCE AND VISCERAL CONNECTION ONE GETS FROM THE 911 IS WORTH EVERY EXTRA PENNY! I almost can’t put a price on the experience the 911 gives me. I’m really surprised as I thought I would it be a toss-up which car I wanted to drive more. Again, it’s no contest.
I will certainly say that if someone were to hold up two sets of keys and ask, “Which one?” I’m taking the P-Car!
First some background. This generation of the M3 is referred to the F80 and the latest 911 is the 991. BMW now calls the sedan the M3 and the coupe the M4. It is very conservatively rated at 425hp with a twin turbo in-line 6 cylinder 3 liter engine. This Porsche 911, an “S” model with the X51 power kit option is rated at 430hp from a 3.8 liter boxer (horizontally opposed) 6 cylinder. One very notable aspect of this review is they both have manual transmissions! The BMW is a six speed manual but the Porsche has a 7 speed manual.
As a side note, the overdrive ratio for the Porsche starts with 6th gear. The 7 speed transmission in the Corvette is a 1:1 in 4th and 5th is an overdrive.
My comparison of the 991 911 vs. F80 M3:
I've hit the 1,500 mile mark on my new F80, so I guess it's time to type out some of my thoughts on the car. I decided to follow the proper break in procedure and have kept the car below 5,500 RPMs, other than hitting the dyno for a baseline run just before doing have the first service done.
Unlike my E92 where I had a dozen parts waiting on the car for install, this time I decided to keep the car stock for a month or so before doing any modifications. I wanted to enjoy the process rather than feel the pressure to be in the garage for 5 straight days putting every part on the car. My OCD tendencies won't allow me to rest until every last detail is done, so this time I learned to take it slowly.
I thought I’d approach my comments as more of a comparison rather than just copy what others have said about the car. I am fortunate enough to have both a 2014 “991” 911 and 2015 F80 M3 in my garage at the same time. The 911 is the benchmark for which I have set my standards, so I thought it useful to compare my new M3 to it. I will say I was a bit afraid the M3 would make me regret spending so much more on the 911. Let’s analyze my opinions to determine whether the 911 is worth it at nearly one and three-quarter times the cost.
For comparison sake, here are the two specs:
2015 M3 Sedan: $62,000
Mineral White Metallic: $550
Sakhir Orange/Black Extended Merino Leather: $950
Lighting Package: $1,900
19" Black Light-Alloy Wheel Double-SpokeStyle 437M: $1,200
Adaptive M Suspension: $1,000
M Carbon Cermaic Brakes: $8,150
Manual Transmission: $0
Harman Kardon Surround Sound System: $875
Destination & Handling: $925
Total MSRP as Built: $77,550
I received $2,000 off MSRP: $75,550
911 Carrera S: $98,900
Burmester Audio Package: $5,290
White: $0
Leather Interior in Black: $3,690
SportDesign Side Mirrors: $600
Model Designation "911": $0
Sport Design Front Fascia: $2,990
Bi-Xenon Headlights in Black incl. PDLS: $1,485
Headlight Cleaning System Cover Painted in Exterior Color: $295
PASM Sport Suspension: $890
7-speed Manual Transmission: $0
20-inch Carrera S Wheels: $0
Wheels Painted Platinum Satin: $950
Instrument Dials in Black: $0
Luggage Net in Passenger Footwell: $0
Smoking Package: $0
Sport Seats Plus (4-way): $440
Sport Design Steering Wheel: $250
Destination: $995
Vehicle MSRP: $134,575 (I got 6% off that sticker.)
Exterior:
I was a little surprised that the M3 doesn't look as big as I thought it would. I purposely hadn't seen one in person prior to heading to the Performance Center to pick mine up. After looking at the measurements, I thought it would look and feel large. I must say though, parked next to the Porsche in the garage, it looks smaller than I expected. I think that's a good thing.
I am very pleased with the contrast of the two opposite exterior designs of the cars. The angular dimensions, aggressive fenders, and carbon fiber roof of the M3 differs greatly from the smooth curves and carefully crafted layout of the 911. The cars are different enough that they cover enough of a design spectrum to appeal to my personality. This may sound insane, but I really feel like the look of these two cars fit me as a person. Whatever that means…
The paint is really, really good on the M3. Dare I say it is almost as good as the Porsche? There is more orange peel, but the Mineral White is one of my favorite things about the car. My Le Mans Blue E92 paint was not great. It would scratch super easily, was prone to water etching, and generally gave me nothing but headaches. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the blue, but I think this Mineral White is
something special. I’ve never been so excited about paint before.
As I tend to do, I was obsessing about how good a job the Performance Center was going do at prepping the car. Most dealerships totally massacre the paint, adding tons of scratches and swirls. Well, they did a really great job. All I needed to do was a finishing polish and wax, and the paint was jeweled and flawless.
Chrome! Call me new school, but I hate chrome. It is cheap and, frankly, makes the car look old. The only piece of chrome on the 911 was the badge. Why in the world would BMW do black trim all over the car and then put chrome grills/gills on this thing? Oh well, easy (rather expensive) fix.
Interior:
This is a little tougher to compare. You have the practical, “family” Sedan versus the pure-bread sports car, so I’ll approach this more from a form standpoint rather than function. Although, my three year-old son can sit in the back of the 911, it won’t be long before he’s too big.
The M3 wins the function part hands down. I’m 6’2” and was pleasantly surprised that I can sit behind my driver’s seat that is positioned properly for me and my knees barely touch the back of the seat.The first thought that came to mind when I started thinking about comparing the two interiors was that the 911 feels very 2011 and the M3 has the technology that makes it much more current. This makes sense as the 991 was designed several years ago. I’m not saying it’s bad. It just gives the aura of an ever so slightly out-dated look. Being newly designed, the M3 obviously wins in this department.
Dare I say, I actually use the Nav in the M3 where the 911 I break out the iPhone. Since we are on the subject of Technology, let’s talk Burmester versus HK. Now you may think this would be laughable, and it pretty much is. But, I’m an audio junkie and have found the HK to be surprising good in comparison. The Burmester is much better, but the HK holds isn’t bad. I was surprised by this one. I thought I would hate the HK system. Having metal dome tweeters, I assumed it would be harsh sounding. Again, it’s not great, but it’s good enough. I won’t be upgrading the system in the M3. I thought I would have wanted to do so.
The seats and seating position are really no comparison. I’ve read how great the new seats are in the M3, but the Porsche seats are worlds better. In looking at the design of the two, I’m guessing the 911 seats are a crap load lighter as well. The leather is also much better in the Porsche.
I opted for full leather in the 911, but only chose Extended in the M3. The reason I decided against doing full leather again is that I hardly notice it in the Porsche. I thought to myself that I’ve never had a leather dash before, and I’ve been okay. So no full leather in the M3, and I’m not disappointed. I was stressing about this while waiting for my car to show-up, but I’m glad I didn’t check the box. I wouldn’t order full leather again on a 911.
I am pleased with the nice touches like deviated stitching on the door panels at no extra cost in the M3. Porsche charges about $4K to do something similar. Like I said the 911 leather is nicer and the fit and finish it a little better, but I think that would be expected at its price point. I certainly feel good about both interiors. I think I’d have to give the M3 a slight edge overall, but they are both very nice.
6 speed manual transmission in the M3 versus the 7 speed manual in the 911:
I’m still a row through the gears kind of guy. I won’t be tracking either car, so being connected to the car by a manual transmission is more important to me than being a few tenths of a second faster. I’m a Honda raised car guy, and the S2000 has spoiled me.
The 6MT in the F80 is much improved over the E92, but it still pretty much sucks. It just doesn’t suck enough to make me complain about it every time I drive the car. This car doesn’t rev nearly as fast as its NA V8 predecessor, so this makes it much easier to handle the car at redline than before. That, and it is has a much shorter, more direct gate to 2nd gear. Also, I don’t detect any notchiness. It is rather smooth but is just a bit numb for my liking.
The gearbox in comparison to the 911 is really no contest. The Porsche is smoother, yet provides a more mechanical feel; has shorter, faster throws; and is better positioned in the car. The only knock on the 911 is that the shifter does block the A/C and radio controls, but I don’t care. It is in the right spot for the best shifting position.
Brakes
Carbon Ceramics, “Oh how I love thee, let me count the ways!” I’m sure all of you are going to give me a hard-time over the following comment. I ordered the CCBs on the M3 primarily due to the cleanliness of them. There is no rust, basically no dust, and they look awesome. So call me ridiculous, but the detail freak in me will never be able to get normal rotors again.
As far as how they work, the braking exercise at the Performance Center to teach how to turn while ABS is engaged was a waste of time. The brakes were so good that we were stopping twenty feet before the turn. The M5s were rolling almost into the grass. I’ve had a few little squeaks while lightly
braking and turning the wheel, but they have been silent otherwise. They make me smile every time I walk up to the car. Washing my wheels is a dream!
To compare the two cars, the CCBs on the M3 are great, but braking is where you really notice the size and weight difference of the two cars. Being 400ish lbs. lighter, the 911 seems to stop more effortlessly. Even though the 911 may outperform, I much prefer the look and feel of the M3 brakes. The 911 steel brakes make a bunch of noise, squeaking, and squealing. I will be ordering CCBs on any future car despite the cost. If you are on the fence like I was, spend the money. You won’t be sorry. I promise.
The Experience
I’m a sucker for the experience. Whether it is at a hotel stay or buying a computer, I want to feel a connection. I want to desire to behind the wheel. I’m not sure I have the words to describe the difference in experience between the two cars, but I’m going to try.
Let’s start with steering. I understand why there are lots of complaints about the transition to electric steering. I’ve read the articles from BMW about their new system in the F8X platform being the best in the world. Well in my novice opinion, they are a distant second. The C2S is much, much better. The only thing better about the M3 is the diameter of the steering wheel, but I’m not sure the fat wheel would work in the 911. It would feel too big. So the 911 wins this hands down.
Now it’s time to talk about the important stuff, throttle response/power delivery. I not sure which car is faster. My guess is they will be very close with the M3 slightly winning from a roll. Off the line, I think it would be much easier to win in the C2S due to weight over the rear wheels. Throttle response is the part that really gets me in a comparison. This “Honda Boy” is used to high-revving, wind-it-out motors.
The C2S begs me to do this, and the M3 makes me feel as though I can but don’t need to do so. If you look at the pattern of car purchases in my past, it would make sense that I much prefer the snappy response of a naturally aspirated engine. You push the pedal in the M3 and you just don’t get the same reaction from the car. Don’t get me wrong, the torque of the M3 is way cool, but the car doesn’t
respond the same to putting your foot down. The 911 springs into immediate action, while the M3 eventually breaks your neck.
Both are fast and perform amazingly well, but the C2S easily wins this for me. Although, I am starting to get used to and really enjoy the flood of torque and whistle of the spooling turbos while in the M car. The sound these cars make could not be any different. Both of them have an artificial enhancement to get sound into the cabin, but for some reason I turn my nose up at BMW’s solution and applaud Porsche’s. The fake sound the M3 is a little offensive. It offends my sense of intelligence. It doesn’t sound bad, it just sounds weird. I think the car sounds okay from the outside, but I only hope an aftermarket exhaust will make it substantially better. Of the many virtues of the M3 the sounds it makes are not one of them.
In contrast, I think the sound symposer in the 911 is genius and really appreciate it. I will say coming from the very organized sounding S65, the 911 took some getting used to. The chaos of backfires and scream at WOT was very different. I’ve grown to become a huge fan of the sound the C2S makes. It is very additive to the experience of driving the car versus the M3’s sound being a negative.
Handling is another no contest. When I picked up the M3 from the Performance Center and spent a day and a half driving through mountain and back roads home to Central Florida, I started to question why anyone would spend so much more on a Porsche. The car felt so balanced and light on its feet. I was immediately in love and began to forget what the 911 felt like.
Well my friends, that euphoria was short lived the morning after I got home. I jumped in the driver’s seat of the C2S, started it up, and immediately knew this was no comparison. When I first got the 911 I had zero experience with driving the car. I only took a short test drive before ordering. Since an early age, I knew I wanted one, but I hadn’t ever actually driven it. I was shocked at how taught and stiff the car was. Now I have Sport PASM, but I could imagine most older gentleman that buy these cars would not take kindly to the aggressive factory suspension settings. That being said, the stiffness is not rough and the overall balance is so wonderful that I can’t put it into words.
The M3 is very good for what it is, but I almost get the sense that BMW engineers artificially made the car ride rougher to instill the sense of a connection with the road. I really notice this on my neighborhood road. The C2S provides all the right feedback while the M3 gives me a bit too much while still feeling a bit more numb. Again, it’s hard to explain. The M3 is good, but the 911 is epic.
So I’m a huge fan of both cars. I love them both in very different ways. I wouldn’t want to live without either one. So is the 911 worth that much more than the M3? I believe so. The performance difference doesn’t even come close to warranting the extra cash that needs to be given up, but… THE EXPERIENCE AND VISCERAL CONNECTION ONE GETS FROM THE 911 IS WORTH EVERY EXTRA PENNY! I almost can’t put a price on the experience the 911 gives me. I’m really surprised as I thought I would it be a toss-up which car I wanted to drive more. Again, it’s no contest.
I will certainly say that if someone were to hold up two sets of keys and ask, “Which one?” I’m taking the P-Car!
Curbside Wheel Repair for an easy and inexpensive fix
Long early morning shadows, a right hand turn in a parking lot and an unmarked curb and suddenly a scrapping sound along with a slight shudder. It is the dreaded sound of a wheel scrapping against a curb. You get out to look, already knowing there will be an ugly, jagged rash on the right rear wheel.
Watch out for poorly placed and poorly marked curbs.
Curb rash is so easy to do, but instead of the inconvenience of dropping the car off, have
Curbside Wheel Repair perform a repair right at your place of work or home. Only $100 per
wheel, versus a quote from a competitor of over $180 per wheel, it is a bargain. Add in the
convenience of not having to drop off your car, and it is priceless.
A new replacement wheel can be as little as $300 or easily run into the thousands of dollars.
With three in need of repair from a prior life as a “city car”, the end result looks like brand new
wheels, saving many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. A word of caution, if your newly repaired wheel finds a protruding, unpainted, dark curb of a property owned by Nicholas A. Speno Associates, such as at 795 W. Hamilton Ave. in Campbell, expect the curbs to be painted yellow after complaining, but don’t expect a $100 reimbursement.
Kris, the owner of Curbside Wheel Repair is very easy to work with and does excellent work. Curbside also performs bent rim repair and headlight restoration. I highly recommend their services without reservation. Kris can be reached at 925-596-5603 or email cwrbayarea@aol.com.
The 2014 Quail A Motorsports Gathering is a Monterey Car Week exclusive treat
The 12th The Quail, A Motorsports Gathering held at The Quail Lodge and Golf Club in Carmel on Friday, August 15th was another epic gathering of the finest automobiles in the world. Entering through the entrance hall, a perfect sized venue awaits where one should prepare to have your senses reeling.
The exclusive event admission is $550 per adult, $100 for children under 12 for those registered and in the computerized lottery. The event supports Rancho Cielo, the Naval Postgraduate School Foundation and the CHP 11-99 Foundation charities. Admission goes far beyond the finest performance oriented automobiles. There were six gourmet food pavilions that had amazing cuisines from around the world. Parking is excellent, and quite honestly, a car show in itself. There was live entertainment and free admission to the Bonhams Quail Lodge Auction a walk or shuttle rife to the west side of the property. Also included were signature wines, champagne and cocktails, an event poster and magazine.
One ultra-cool part of the event was the fireside chat with Wayne Carini, Nick Mason, the drummer from Pink Floyd who is an avid collector and racer; Neal Schon, car enthusiast and guitarist from Journey and Santana; and Sir Jackie Stewart, three time Formula 1 world champion.
The first display noticed is the Bugatti Veyron collection. An amazing gathering of rolling sculpture and art, each with over twelve hundred horsepower tucked behind the passenger compartment. These were special editions, “Les Légendes de Bugatti”, honoring some of the more significant people and vehicles in the company’s history with special finishes and designs. Each of the six models is based on the Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Grand Sport Vitesse, all together for the first time.
The Supercars thankfully had a Porsche 918 parked next to an exposed carbon fiber McLaren P1. Outrageously curvy, it was possibly done a disservice due to the unpainted, high tech surface. However there was a green P1 in the parking lot. Conspicuously absent again this year was the LaFerrari.
Special displays were 100th Anniversary of Maserati, Competition Mustangs, a Tribute to India and Rock ‘n’ Roll. Traditional Classes featured included: Pre-War Sports and Racing, Post-War Sports, Post-War Racing and Super Cars, The Great Ferraris and Sports and Racing Motorcycles. Multiple manufacturers such as Aston Martin, Audi, Cadillac, Lincoln and Porsche also had their latest cars on
display.
Test drives were occurring from Porsche, Jaguar, Land Rover, Infiniti, and Cadillac. Lamborghini was also present with their global unveiling of the Huracán LP 620-2 Super Trofeo race car. Jaguar had the F-TYPE Project 7 and the prototype of the new Lightweight EType. A Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé Waterspeed was displayed. With Rolls-Royce was Burgess, the superyacht leader
unveiling their exciting new Waterspeed Collection. The big Bentley display featured the big, bad Continental GT3-R.
After making a quick initial tour of the event before lunch and the crowds, I grabbed a margarita from Sammy Hagar’s Beach Bar Rum station. While taking in the moment with a cool breeze, a delicious citrus drink with a sweet kick, Paganis on my left, classic and modern Ferraris in front and on my right with mountains in the background, a kind of nirvana set in. I knew in that moment there was no better place in the world for a car enthusiast. It was an alcohol fuel injected heavenly wonderland for foodies of horsepower and automotive history.
The Quail 2014 photo album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.540483342723048.1073741839.378354382269279&type=1&l=02d20682a7
The exclusive event admission is $550 per adult, $100 for children under 12 for those registered and in the computerized lottery. The event supports Rancho Cielo, the Naval Postgraduate School Foundation and the CHP 11-99 Foundation charities. Admission goes far beyond the finest performance oriented automobiles. There were six gourmet food pavilions that had amazing cuisines from around the world. Parking is excellent, and quite honestly, a car show in itself. There was live entertainment and free admission to the Bonhams Quail Lodge Auction a walk or shuttle rife to the west side of the property. Also included were signature wines, champagne and cocktails, an event poster and magazine.
One ultra-cool part of the event was the fireside chat with Wayne Carini, Nick Mason, the drummer from Pink Floyd who is an avid collector and racer; Neal Schon, car enthusiast and guitarist from Journey and Santana; and Sir Jackie Stewart, three time Formula 1 world champion.
The first display noticed is the Bugatti Veyron collection. An amazing gathering of rolling sculpture and art, each with over twelve hundred horsepower tucked behind the passenger compartment. These were special editions, “Les Légendes de Bugatti”, honoring some of the more significant people and vehicles in the company’s history with special finishes and designs. Each of the six models is based on the Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Grand Sport Vitesse, all together for the first time.
The Supercars thankfully had a Porsche 918 parked next to an exposed carbon fiber McLaren P1. Outrageously curvy, it was possibly done a disservice due to the unpainted, high tech surface. However there was a green P1 in the parking lot. Conspicuously absent again this year was the LaFerrari.
Special displays were 100th Anniversary of Maserati, Competition Mustangs, a Tribute to India and Rock ‘n’ Roll. Traditional Classes featured included: Pre-War Sports and Racing, Post-War Sports, Post-War Racing and Super Cars, The Great Ferraris and Sports and Racing Motorcycles. Multiple manufacturers such as Aston Martin, Audi, Cadillac, Lincoln and Porsche also had their latest cars on
display.
Test drives were occurring from Porsche, Jaguar, Land Rover, Infiniti, and Cadillac. Lamborghini was also present with their global unveiling of the Huracán LP 620-2 Super Trofeo race car. Jaguar had the F-TYPE Project 7 and the prototype of the new Lightweight EType. A Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé Waterspeed was displayed. With Rolls-Royce was Burgess, the superyacht leader
unveiling their exciting new Waterspeed Collection. The big Bentley display featured the big, bad Continental GT3-R.
After making a quick initial tour of the event before lunch and the crowds, I grabbed a margarita from Sammy Hagar’s Beach Bar Rum station. While taking in the moment with a cool breeze, a delicious citrus drink with a sweet kick, Paganis on my left, classic and modern Ferraris in front and on my right with mountains in the background, a kind of nirvana set in. I knew in that moment there was no better place in the world for a car enthusiast. It was an alcohol fuel injected heavenly wonderland for foodies of horsepower and automotive history.
The Quail 2014 photo album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.540483342723048.1073741839.378354382269279&type=1&l=02d20682a7
McCalls Motorworks Revival sets the tone for the 2014 Monterey Car Week
We went to a party at the Monterey Jet Center on Wednesday, August 13th. It had a red carpet entry, a photo area, complimentary champagne, sushi, caviar, an oyster bar, live music and DJ(s). We saw Chad McQueen, Wayne Carini and various captains of industry. It was quite a party, but the real stars were the airplanes, helicopters, cars and motorcycles in the two hangers and the tarmac in front. The
vehicles were the recipients of all the oohing and ahing.
Gordon McCall hosted another spectacular kick-off party for the Monterey Car week. At $325 per person for a VIP ticket, it is not inexpensive, but it is a spectacular party that just happens to host a world-class vehicle show. Prominent displays of car manufacturers included Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Ford, Icon 4x4, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Lexus, Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Pagani, Panoz, Singer Vehicle Design, Tesla, and Toyota. The big sponsor was the CHP 11-99 foundation raffling the new 2015 Ford Mustang 50th anniversary edition, Parmigiani and Baum Mercier watches, a Hasselbrad camera and a Foxy Couture brooch. Gleim the Jeweler, Weather Tech, Feadship shipping cooperative, Carmel Realty Company and others also had displays.
Out on the tarmac there were spectacular aircraft on display including Gulfstream, helicopters and a P-51 Mustang. Rick Cole Auctions parked a number of very fine entries to pre-preview before the Thursday viewing and auction starting on Friday. Other notable highlights were sport coupes from the Petersen Auto Museum, the freakishly massive 30 foot, 1600hp Packard Royal with a PT Boat engine and Ford Mustang concept car.
Speaking with other attendees was fascinating with collectors, business owners, philanthropists, visitors to the US to buy or sell at upcoming auctions and others there just to enjoy the festivities. With so much varied and finely engineered hardware to peruse at this spectacularly prepared and attended venue, a big thank you and standing applause to Gordon McCall for a magical evening.
Photo album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.539829769455072.1073741838.378354382269279&type=1&l=ae000feea1
vehicles were the recipients of all the oohing and ahing.
Gordon McCall hosted another spectacular kick-off party for the Monterey Car week. At $325 per person for a VIP ticket, it is not inexpensive, but it is a spectacular party that just happens to host a world-class vehicle show. Prominent displays of car manufacturers included Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Ford, Icon 4x4, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Lexus, Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Pagani, Panoz, Singer Vehicle Design, Tesla, and Toyota. The big sponsor was the CHP 11-99 foundation raffling the new 2015 Ford Mustang 50th anniversary edition, Parmigiani and Baum Mercier watches, a Hasselbrad camera and a Foxy Couture brooch. Gleim the Jeweler, Weather Tech, Feadship shipping cooperative, Carmel Realty Company and others also had displays.
Out on the tarmac there were spectacular aircraft on display including Gulfstream, helicopters and a P-51 Mustang. Rick Cole Auctions parked a number of very fine entries to pre-preview before the Thursday viewing and auction starting on Friday. Other notable highlights were sport coupes from the Petersen Auto Museum, the freakishly massive 30 foot, 1600hp Packard Royal with a PT Boat engine and Ford Mustang concept car.
Speaking with other attendees was fascinating with collectors, business owners, philanthropists, visitors to the US to buy or sell at upcoming auctions and others there just to enjoy the festivities. With so much varied and finely engineered hardware to peruse at this spectacularly prepared and attended venue, a big thank you and standing applause to Gordon McCall for a magical evening.
Photo album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.539829769455072.1073741838.378354382269279&type=1&l=ae000feea1
Modifying an SUV to be the safest possible family vehicle
I received a very thought provoking letter from a reader in Miami, Florida asking about the safest possible family vehicle. Readers, what are your thoughts?
Dear Rob,
My name is Diego, and I stumbled on to your post about vehicle height precisely researching on vehicle safety. My wife is pregnant and two months away from giving birth. My baby girl is not even born yet and I'm already a very overprotective father! As soon as I found out she was pregnant I bought her a Chevrolet Equinox, IIHS top safety in the SUV department. The other day I was thinking and I figured that there are trucks and SUVs out there that are a lot
larger than my wife's SUV.
So with the intent on my future princess being extremely well protected from the ever-so-common-in-Miami car accidents I want to buy and modify the safest vehicle I can. I was thinking on the lines of buying a Ford Excursion for its very large size and mass, maybe lifting it a few inches but also widening its stance to prevent the rollover risk and then going on to have it fitted with the same solid steel front and rear bumpers seen in many off road and work vehicles, also have it fitted with any kind of extra support for the roof columns, internal door supports etc. After reading your post, I've also considered implementing large heavy duty brembo brakes for stopping power. So my questions to you are:
1) On equal terms will a vehicle with a greater mass be safer to passengers in the event of an accident?
2) What car, and what modifications would you recommend to me? I want to either buy or build the safest family vehicle out possible, money is not an issue at all, price of the vehicle or how much it costs to have a shop modify it is not a factor.
Thank you for your attention and I apologize if the email is longer than just a question, but I did want you to know what was on my mind so you could have a background to work on! Thanks again and have a great day! I’ll be awaiting your response!
Sincerely, Diego
Hello Diego,
I certainly understand being overprotective! I’ll cover each of the points you raised. Keep in mind potential compromises as these topics are vetted. For overall size and rugged build, an SUV is the obvious choice. Also keep in mind it isn’t just accident survivability, but also accident avoidance by handling, braking, driver skill and decision making.
1. A vehicle with greater mass may be safer in an accident, especially against a lighter vehicle. However, drawbacks are potentially increased stopping distance and an adverse effect on emergency handling. Secondary to your points, fuel efficiency, brake and tire wear and if a larger vehicle, practical maneuverability; are all negatively effected.
While I could initially recommend a crew-cab heavy duty pick-up truck, braking distances are sub-par and emergency handling is very poor. The overly large size is restrictive for parking, service, etc. Finally, with a curb weight of 3 tons or more, I can’t even speculate on the cab roll-over protection the vehicle weight works against.
2. Regarding modifications, this can be a tricky proposition depending upon the vehicle. I always recommend opting for the sport package because performance oriented upgrades mean better handling, upgraded tires for better grip (handling and braking), and overall heavier duty components.
A tire and wheel upgrade package would likely be as effective as larger brakes for a well engineered vehicle. Larger brakes don’t necessarily mean a shorter stopping distance, but rather better repeated braking performance and less wear. A significant weight increase would also justify larger brakes. Evasive driving also justifies a larger brake package.
Raising a vehicle will have an adverse effect on handling, potentially braking and increase rollover risk. Widening the stance with spacers, assuming they can be found for an SUV can help minutely provided there is room without protruding past the fenders. You don’t want to overly stress components and void a warranty on a highly capable yet heavy SUV.
Structural reinforcements can have benefits, but have negatives too. A reduction of a crush zone increases the g-forces on occupants by reducing the deceleration time after impact. Cabin reinforcements can be very costly and roll bars must be heavily padded or cause greater injury than without. My suggestion would be to contact a vehicle modification company such as O’Gara since this is their specialty as well as for firearm resistance, another important consideration.
Some rare safety features that offer superior occupant protection are self-contained seat belt and seat assemblies. This is an expensive engineering feat. A five-point racing harness is an excellent safety modification but requires expert incorporation and replacing existing seats. Another feature is an airbag incorporated into the seatbelt. This was recently observed in the 2014 Ford Explorer Sport, an impressive SUV.
A capable, safe and performance oriented SUV is my recommendation. There are good SUVs and there are great SUVs. I would choose from the highest performance versions of the BMW X5, Porsche Cayenne, Mercedes M, G or GL class or Land Rover because of their fantastic driving dynamics for an SUV and heavy duty construction. If you wish to modify beyond what is offered, I recommend contacting O’Gara and Canepa Design since they can offer expert consulting based on their modification experience and enhance whatever you choose.
Finally, the most important aspect of occupant safety is the driver. I highly recommend performance and tactical or emergency situation driver training for your wife and yourself. All the structural reinforcements and accident avoidance capacity are null and void if the driver makes poor choices, panics and hesitates. Extreme braking, acceleration, slalom maneuvers, obstacle avoidance, J-turns, etc. should all be in your ability with confidence. This is the most important part of occupant safety.
Good luck and keep me posted on your choice and send pictures!
Dear Rob,
My name is Diego, and I stumbled on to your post about vehicle height precisely researching on vehicle safety. My wife is pregnant and two months away from giving birth. My baby girl is not even born yet and I'm already a very overprotective father! As soon as I found out she was pregnant I bought her a Chevrolet Equinox, IIHS top safety in the SUV department. The other day I was thinking and I figured that there are trucks and SUVs out there that are a lot
larger than my wife's SUV.
So with the intent on my future princess being extremely well protected from the ever-so-common-in-Miami car accidents I want to buy and modify the safest vehicle I can. I was thinking on the lines of buying a Ford Excursion for its very large size and mass, maybe lifting it a few inches but also widening its stance to prevent the rollover risk and then going on to have it fitted with the same solid steel front and rear bumpers seen in many off road and work vehicles, also have it fitted with any kind of extra support for the roof columns, internal door supports etc. After reading your post, I've also considered implementing large heavy duty brembo brakes for stopping power. So my questions to you are:
1) On equal terms will a vehicle with a greater mass be safer to passengers in the event of an accident?
2) What car, and what modifications would you recommend to me? I want to either buy or build the safest family vehicle out possible, money is not an issue at all, price of the vehicle or how much it costs to have a shop modify it is not a factor.
Thank you for your attention and I apologize if the email is longer than just a question, but I did want you to know what was on my mind so you could have a background to work on! Thanks again and have a great day! I’ll be awaiting your response!
Sincerely, Diego
Hello Diego,
I certainly understand being overprotective! I’ll cover each of the points you raised. Keep in mind potential compromises as these topics are vetted. For overall size and rugged build, an SUV is the obvious choice. Also keep in mind it isn’t just accident survivability, but also accident avoidance by handling, braking, driver skill and decision making.
1. A vehicle with greater mass may be safer in an accident, especially against a lighter vehicle. However, drawbacks are potentially increased stopping distance and an adverse effect on emergency handling. Secondary to your points, fuel efficiency, brake and tire wear and if a larger vehicle, practical maneuverability; are all negatively effected.
While I could initially recommend a crew-cab heavy duty pick-up truck, braking distances are sub-par and emergency handling is very poor. The overly large size is restrictive for parking, service, etc. Finally, with a curb weight of 3 tons or more, I can’t even speculate on the cab roll-over protection the vehicle weight works against.
2. Regarding modifications, this can be a tricky proposition depending upon the vehicle. I always recommend opting for the sport package because performance oriented upgrades mean better handling, upgraded tires for better grip (handling and braking), and overall heavier duty components.
A tire and wheel upgrade package would likely be as effective as larger brakes for a well engineered vehicle. Larger brakes don’t necessarily mean a shorter stopping distance, but rather better repeated braking performance and less wear. A significant weight increase would also justify larger brakes. Evasive driving also justifies a larger brake package.
Raising a vehicle will have an adverse effect on handling, potentially braking and increase rollover risk. Widening the stance with spacers, assuming they can be found for an SUV can help minutely provided there is room without protruding past the fenders. You don’t want to overly stress components and void a warranty on a highly capable yet heavy SUV.
Structural reinforcements can have benefits, but have negatives too. A reduction of a crush zone increases the g-forces on occupants by reducing the deceleration time after impact. Cabin reinforcements can be very costly and roll bars must be heavily padded or cause greater injury than without. My suggestion would be to contact a vehicle modification company such as O’Gara since this is their specialty as well as for firearm resistance, another important consideration.
Some rare safety features that offer superior occupant protection are self-contained seat belt and seat assemblies. This is an expensive engineering feat. A five-point racing harness is an excellent safety modification but requires expert incorporation and replacing existing seats. Another feature is an airbag incorporated into the seatbelt. This was recently observed in the 2014 Ford Explorer Sport, an impressive SUV.
A capable, safe and performance oriented SUV is my recommendation. There are good SUVs and there are great SUVs. I would choose from the highest performance versions of the BMW X5, Porsche Cayenne, Mercedes M, G or GL class or Land Rover because of their fantastic driving dynamics for an SUV and heavy duty construction. If you wish to modify beyond what is offered, I recommend contacting O’Gara and Canepa Design since they can offer expert consulting based on their modification experience and enhance whatever you choose.
Finally, the most important aspect of occupant safety is the driver. I highly recommend performance and tactical or emergency situation driver training for your wife and yourself. All the structural reinforcements and accident avoidance capacity are null and void if the driver makes poor choices, panics and hesitates. Extreme braking, acceleration, slalom maneuvers, obstacle avoidance, J-turns, etc. should all be in your ability with confidence. This is the most important part of occupant safety.
Good luck and keep me posted on your choice and send pictures!
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)